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wizardzz4-Dec-12 9:27

4-Dec-12 9:27

I'll admit, I went back to play and read some of the game's story last night. Given the list of games that they want to add, I would say it does belong among them. It is a subtly avant-garde (if that can be) game that is different in the modern gaming world of copy cat games. I guess I focused too much on the mechanics and the portals, rather than what really does set it apart.

I would like to recommend Earthbound to the list, too.

Colin Mullikin4-Dec-12 10:04

4-Dec-12 10:04

wizardzz wrote:
I would like to recommend Earthbound to the list, too.

PK FIRE![^]

The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill

America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde

Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin

wizardzz4-Dec-12 10:08

4-Dec-12 10:08

Never knew the characters lived on in Smash Bros.

Thou mewling ill-breeding pignut!

AspDotNetDev3-Dec-12 8:31

AspDotNetDev

3-Dec-12 8:31

I think the "art" in the case of Portal is the virtual world. The bending of reality is pretty neat. Most games create a 3D world that mimics real life, but Portal created something not (yet) possible in real life. It also did so in a very flexible way (i.e, some games, like Spyro, have created similar portals, but not ones that players could create).

wizardzz3-Dec-12 9:14

3-Dec-12 9:14

The definition of art is subjective, obviously. But to me art is supposed to invoke a strong reaction; awe, disgust, self examination, etc. Portal and its world are cool and original, but not qualified as art in my opinion; not more-so than many other games.

Thou mewling ill-breeding pignut!

AspDotNetDev3-Dec-12 11:24

AspDotNetDev

3-Dec-12 11:24

wizardzz wrote:
The definition of art is subjective

True, I have many different categories/definitions of art. One is traditional art (paintings and such). Some art something which simply alters a medium (e.g., the first person to add physical depth to paintings with extra materials). Other forms of art initially defy categorization, and that is what makes them art. I would categorize Portal as avant-garde.

I guess I place the most value on art that is novel. Others, like yourself, feel more strongly about art that evokes a reaction. I suppose each perspective shares some of the other; novel ideas tend to evoke reactions, and evocative art is in many cases novel.

Clodetta del Mar4-Dec-12 3:11

Clodetta del Mar

4-Dec-12 3:11

Definitely Art:
Bethesda´s Elder Scrolls (when it come´s to it´s Online Version which will be launched sometime next year, then it will become something above Art...I guess it becomes divine...!!!)

Myst and it´s Sequel Riven was my 2nd thought, et voilà, Myst is already in the list Cool | :cool:

Alan Balkany4-Dec-12 4:25

Alan Balkany

4-Dec-12 4:25

Art is whatever you can get away with.

"Microsoft -- Adding unnecessary complexity to your work since 1987!"

Colin Mullikin4-Dec-12 4:30

4-Dec-12 4:30

Alan Balkany wrote:
Art is whatever you can get away with.

Does that mean all artists are thieves? What about art thieves? Poke tongue | ;-P

StatementTerminator4-Dec-12 4:30

StatementTerminator

4-Dec-12 4:30

Interesting. I've been an avid gamer for a long time and I've been waiting for games to come along that are truly works of art.

I'm still waiting, gaming doesn't have its Citizen Kane yet. Not for lack of quality, games have become really amazing, but the focus is on commercial entertainment rather than art. Most games are like summer blockbuster movies: incredibly well-made and entertaining, but forget about the Oscars.

I think that the main problem is the writing, games tend to focus on gameplay (naturally) and writing is often an afterthought, sometimes with comically bad results. Writing is getting better particularly when it comes to dialog (the Uncharted series is a good example), but it's still more like good hack writing for a blockbuster movie, not serious art.

Game studios are starting to take the writing and voice acting seriously, so at least we're getting beyond the stage of having a plot thrown together by designers and programmers with no writing background, and voice-acted by whoever is in the office. Pros are starting to be used these days, but it's mostly hack work, because using professional writers and actors is expensive and the safest way to get a return is to make the equivalent of a summer action flick.

I think that games are getting there, but the writing needs to evolve before they truly become art. Half-Life (by no means an early game) was revolutionary partly because it actually had a plot, that's how much writing has lagged in gaming. There are some well-written games out there, but not so much on the level of literary art. Many aspects of games such as gameplay, visual art, and music are already often on the level of serious art, but before games as a whole become an art form the writing needs to catch up.

modified 5-Dec-12 10:37am.

Colin Mullikin4-Dec-12 4:44

4-Dec-12 4:44

While I agree with most of what you said, the problem is that you are comparing two completely different mediums. A great movie, such as The Godfather or It's a Wonderful Life, is all about the story and the execution of that story. A great game needs to have so much more than that. To expect them to be able to write and execute stories that are at the same level, but still have all of the other things necessary such as innovative gameplay and graphics, is to expect too much.

It would be like comparing some piece of modern art made of wood to a beautiful rocking chair made by a master carpenter. They have similar roots, but the art piece is made for one reason, to look nice. The rocking chair, on the other hand, has to achieve so much more. So yes, it may not look as nice and thought provoking as the piece of art, but that's because it has a different purpose.

StatementTerminator4-Dec-12 4:54

StatementTerminator

4-Dec-12 4:54

I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's too much to expect, though it's certainly a lot to expect.

The problem is that storytelling requires a different approach in gaming than in fiction or film making, and the gaming industry is still figuring that out. Mostly they have gone for cinematic storytelling, often at the expense of gameplay. I don't think it's impossible to have great storytelling and gameplay, but that's still evolving.

Other aspects of games are on the level of serious art, for example Myst is a collection of very interesting visual art, and American McGee's Alice has music that is on the level of art. I think that writing can get there too, but game studios need to figure out how to do great storytelling in the context of a game; that's something that's still being figured out I think.

wizardzz4-Dec-12 9:35

4-Dec-12 9:35

I don't think that I have ever agreed with a statement this long before. Seriously, it's exactly how I feel. I'd love to write for games, yes I can code, too, but I really want to get into game writing. There are only a few people that I currently know of that might be able to write an incredible game, and most of them write comic books or theatre or are dead.

StatementTerminator wrote:
because using professional writers and actors is expensive

This is probably humorous to all but the household names in acting and writing (are there household named writers). I see your point though, and agree, I was just pointing this out, and not at your expense.

RafagaX4-Dec-12 4:39

RafagaX

4-Dec-12 4:39

All i have to say is that if Warhol was alive, he would be there.

CEO at:
- Rafaga Systems
- Para Facturas
- Modern Components
for the moment...

Colin Mullikin4-Dec-12 4:44

Video Games: 14 in the Collection, for Starters[^]

4-Dec-12 4:44

Design - Not art

mgkr5-Dec-12 6:17

mgkr

5-Dec-12 6:17

MoMA wrote:

Are video games art? They sure are, but they are also design, and a design approach is what we chose for this

new foray into this universe. The games are selected as outstanding examples of interaction design—a field that MoMA has already explored and collected extensively, and one of the most important and oft-discussed expressions of contemporary design creativity. Our criteria, therefore, emphasize not only the visual quality and aesthetic experience of each game, but also the many other aspects—from the elegance of the code to the design of the player’s behavior—that pertain to interaction design

Colin Mullikin5-Dec-12 7:29

5-Dec-12 7:29

I fail to see what you just contributed to this conversation... D'Oh! | :doh:

mgkr5-Dec-12 9:19

mgkr

5-Dec-12 9:19

I was trying to correct your mis-conception of

Colin Mullikin wrote:
MoMA (The Museum of Modern Art) in New York City has decided that video games are art

No - They have not decided any such thing as such (hence my change of title)
What they *have* done is consider games in the context of DESIGN.

And I quoted the relevant bit mentioning their selection criteria (as some apparently have missed that bit entirely) - and provided the link once more for those wishing to dig deeper.

The games are not selected based on how "artful" they are or not - It's based on their design (with specific definition given by MoMA for what "design" is in this context)

Colin Mullikin5-Dec-12 9:47

5-Dec-12 9:47

mgkr wrote:
No - They have not decided any such thing as such

Except they did decide that. Read the first part of the quote that you yourself took from the article. D'Oh! | :doh:

MoMA wrote:
Are video games art? They sure are...

Yes, they have chosen to focus more on the interaction design aspect of the games, but they are considering them art. After all, they are an art museum, not a design museum.

mgkr5-Dec-12 10:02

mgkr

5-Dec-12 10:02

Discussing whether games are art or not is all well and good.

But doing so with reference to a MoMA exhibition who goes to some pain to explain that the games are *not* chosen based on how "art'sy" they are or not, is mis-representing what that particular MoMA exhibition is about in my opinion.

Hence my post to try and rectify that - As reading the responses here seems to indicate most didn't get/read/understand that (in my opinion only of course)

And thus could be (mis)lead to believe that those games selected are somehow more "art'sy" than those not selected - In which case they'd make fools of themself... Which could be embarrassing...

Colin Mullikin5-Dec-12 10:09