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I thought it might be a good idea to run down to the local community college and sign up for some classes. I've spent all my time as a programmer over the last 10 years and I think things have gotten a bit stale. My noggin is getting sleepy so I figure a few classes might brush away the malaise. Networking has always confused me so I thought I'd jump into that and learn some of the basics.
Evidently my B.A degree and numerous technical community college courses over the years do not exempt me from placement tests. I have to take tests in math, writing, and reading. I was looking over the math questions and I'll be honest - I don't think I can pass the Algebra portion. It's a bit of a wake up call. I may be much dumber than I appear - which is scary.
It occurs to me that I may have programmed myself into a position at work for which I'm unqualified.
Of course, there are many ways to judge "qualified", after all I do write and manage software used by hundreds of people. There are real world skills vs. figuring out when a train leaving point A at 65 miles per hour will intersect a train leaving point B at 35 miles per hour - however, I hate the idea that I've lost so much knowledge. Granted, I don't know if I ever had the knowledge to solve the trian thingy.
There is this gem off the community college website:
Since math knowledge can deteriorate with time, math levels of 5 and above are good for two years from the placement test date or the completion of specific math courses.
I can read that two ways:
1: Because most math is utterless useless you have a tendency to shove it out of your head so that useful items can be remembered instead.
2: You're too old for this - come get some, biiiyatch!
I could take a quick refresher and bone my way through the placement tests just to blow past them but it occurs to me that just brushing them aside isn't the best choice. I'm in no hurry so I think #2 sounds like fun. I think I'll go take the placement test, bomb it, and then enroll in a basic maths class and enjoy the process. I think I may just go learn the maths this time around for fun.
I'm not dead yet.
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Neither one of them is the case, it's not just math, happens to anything you do not frequently need you'll keep forgetting it in time, languages for example... i remember i was pretty good at french an Italian but due to 0 practice in the normal work environment I've lost most of it.
Math is no different. Although i have to admit that i never understood trigonometry very well either..  
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!!
Dogs are man's best Friend,
Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
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It amazes me that there are people working in computers that are not up to speed in Maths.
OK, I don't expect everyone to had a PhD in it, but surely some level of competence is required?
(I am at A-Level standard for those who know the British System, that is post-secondary education aged 17-19 years old).
---------------------------------
I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC Link[ ^]
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It amazes me that there are people working in computers that are not up to speed in Maths
Why? one thing does not necessarily need to involve the other?
Programming does have a basic math part, but i think it's more important to have that problem solving skill and a very good understanding of logic and outside the box thinking.
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!!
Dogs are man's best Friend,
Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
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Mendor81 wrote: Programming does have a basic massive math part
FYI
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I guess it all depends on the point of view and the type of programming your doing and what you consider basic and what not.
Not going to argue about that.
Hmm i wonder why its doing that......ARGHS NO STOP, ROLLBACK ROLLBACK...F*** That's how i learned to "Always Backup"!!
Dogs are man's best Friend,
Cats are man's adorable little serial killer
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Well, I'm not not looking for an argument - I just find that my work as a developer seems to require more skills in this area than it used to.
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Dalek Dave wrote: It amazes me that there are people working in computers that are not up to speed in Maths.
In 10 years of accounting programming the most complicated math programming I've had to do is figure an average.
Even if I had to figure interest rates/accum I'd use a predefined equation for it.
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I had to show the workings of an amortization calculation in a test once.
What was especially obnoxious is that not only have I NEVER used that knowledge, the tutor told us that we would never need to know it because we would either use a table or a spreadsheet would calculate it for us.
However, the Institute insists that you are able to do it!
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I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC Link[ ^]
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Math classes are so that math people can have jobs.
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It keeps Management Accountants well fed too 
---------------------------------
I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC Link[ ^]
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MehGerbil wrote:
Math classes are so that math people can have
jobs.
Not really. Depending on how you categorize it most math is useful somewhere.
However that is quite a bit different than saying all math is useful everywhere.
There are certain aspects of math which might be useful for solving a difficult problem in almost any problem domain but in terms of code the line count for that is so small that it is essentially zero in most business domains.
Not to mention of course that many businesses which might make use of an optimized mathematical solution can get by quite well with some hacked and less optimized piece of code.
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Dalek Dave wrote: It amazes me that there are people working in computers that are not up to speed in Maths.
Because, for the most part, you don't need it. I don't recall the last time I had to use pure math to solve a problem (unless I did it without realizing I'd done it). Of course a basic grasp is always handy but we're not all bean counters so don't need to use it on a day-to-day basis like you.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
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It is too easy these days to use use brute force tacticts to solve problems. An example that comes to mind was about a year ago. One of the imports used by our software gets monthly summary data from our customer's point of service database. The summary records consists only of total number sold and total revenue by item. A few of the items had multiple price points...this had never been an issue for us before, but now the customer needed these items split in our system as well. The first thought was that we will need to completely rewrite the import to get the breakdown by price point...but then I think, since there are only two price points for these items (and these are known in our system) only one combination of quantity/price is possible given the total quantity sold and total revenue. Within 5 minutes I had a code block with nested for loops to find the correct combination. It worked, but it just seemed dirty...I know this can be expressed as a formula...so I spent the next 3 hours working out the formula. The new solution offered no discernable performance improvement from the first solution...so was the time spent coming up with an 'elegant' solution worth it?
For those looking for a math challenge, here is the problem simplified:
423 apples were sold for a total of $301.35
Large apples are .85 cents each
Regular apples are .65 cents each
How many large apples were sold and how many regular apples were sold?
I posed this question to multiple co-workers and friends for fun. None were able to figure it out, or at least they didn't have the patience to work at it.
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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kmoorevs wrote: 423 apples were sold for a total of $301.35
Large apples are .85 cents
each
Regular apples are .65 cents each
Edit: At first I wrote this wasn't enough information, but I see you've the number of apples sold specified. That would be enough information although beyond me.
modified 14-Nov-12 14:48pm.
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kmoorevs wrote: so was the time spent coming up with an 'elegant' solution worth it?
In terms of initial development cost - no.
In terms of long term cost - maybe or maybe not. It depends on which solution is actually more understandable to the average developer.
In terms of morale - I suspect you would say yes (your morale.) Morale is a known factor in business that has been shown to impact productivity.
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Dalek Dave wrote: but surely some level of competence is required?
Nope.
Programming by its very nature requires some of the concepts of algebra. Essentially understanding what a variable is.
But other than that, excluding some specific problem domains (relatively small ones) no math is required.
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When I was applying to join The Army (more years ago than I care to remember), part of the application was to sit a series of tests.
One of them was a maths test.
They gave you 30 minutes to complete the 30 questions.
After three minutes I asked if I should wait or could I hand in the sheet.
The Recruitment Sergeant looked at me in an odd way and said that I had to finish the test, and was rather surprised when I told him I had.
He took it from me and marked it and was surprised to discover I got them all right.
I also passed the Intelligence Tests (used for selection of trades for the applicants), with the highest score he had ever seen.
(IMNSHO There are a lot of people who join the forces without much in the way of grey matter).
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I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC Link[ ^]
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Dalek Dave wrote: I also passed the Intelligence Tests (used for selection of trades for the applicants), with the highest score he had ever seen.
Yet you failed a really basic intelligence test by joining the military, thereby illustrating the difference between book smarts and street smarts.
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My Military Service was never in question.
Father, Grandfather, Greatgrandfather, Uncles, Aunts, Cousins etc...
We are a military family and it was expected that I join.
TBH I loved it.
I got to do things you would never do in the real world, and got paid for the privilege.
(Ask anyone who has ever served, it really is 'Through the Looking Glass' when you are in).
I had a cracking three years.
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I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC Link[ ^]
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I had to do an open book maths exam once (it was a 'support subject' module in first year at uni).
How anyone failed to get 100% I really do not know.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Shed Petition[ ^]
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I did maths and computer science at university in London. Since then, I can honestly say that I've never had to use anything but the basics. Where I have worked in scientific-type computing (as opposed to financial/commercial) most equations are well documented and mostly derive from published sources or standards. Others have been taken from or based on examples in Stroud's Engineering Mathematics (the best book I ever had on the subject) and with Google it's relatively easy to find some working code.
I also remember the train leaving A at speed x and B leaving C at speed y type problems. One showed the trains on a diagram with the additional information that if A leaves its station at say, 1130 at what time will the trains pass each other. The diagram showed the trains at each end of a single track line. Nobody in their right mind would want to anywhere near those trains when they "pass" each other.
Best of luck in your chosen subject!
"I do not have to forgive my enemies, I have had them all shot." — Ramón Maria Narváez (1800-68).
"I don't need to shoot my enemies, I don't have any." - Me (2012).
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MehGerbil wrote: I don't think I can pass the Algebra portion
What's "Algebra"...? 
The United States invariably does the right thing, after having exhausted every other alternative. -Winston Churchill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. -Oscar Wilde
Wow, even the French showed a little more spine than that before they got their sh*t pushed in.[^] -Colin Mullikin
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You need placement testing to participate further in this thread.
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When I was offered a professorship they required me to attend some part-time teacher training courses as a precondition. We had a basic math test as a prerequisite which was so simple I was almost offended. As part of the course we each had to present a five minute class to our colleagues - and then have them provide constructive (hopefully) criticism afterwards. I presented a class on binary as used in computers (of course), including covering ones and twos complement stuff. I actually had a Maths teacher come to me afterwards to say he never fully understood that area of binary until my hyper-speed lecture clarified it for him! I was dinged by everyone for the "hyper-speed" part (I tend to talk very quickly when nervous) but he still learned something!
That was many decades (and a million lines of code) ago and now I don't think I could even spell binary without the aid of a spell-checker.
- Life in the fast lane is only fun if you live in a country with no speed limits.
- Of all the things I have lost, it is my mind that I miss the most.
- I vaguely remember having a good memory...
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