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Quote: If it's homework, isn't the general idea for the student to do the work themselves, and take any problems to the teacher?
Sure. But don't students often work together, ask their parents, have tutors, etc? I see no problem with them asking us here as long as it isn't, "hey, do my work for me."
And by the same argument, aren't you supposed to do your own work at work (employment)? You are getting paid after all so why help someone getting paid and not help the one learning?
Quote: but when was the last time you saw a homework question that wasn't "here's the assignment, it's due tomorrow, send me teh codezz, it's urgent"?
That definitely is a problem.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Richard Deeming wrote: when was the last time you saw a homework question that wasn't "here's the
assignment, it's due tomorrow, send me teh codezz, it's urgent"?
Post not directed to me, but I can answer that question.
Last week, someone posted a question asking for help and stating it was homework.
The responders didn't supply code, just advice; the OP was asked to post their code if the hints didn't resolve the issue.
The code was posted the next code and someone replied with a clearer direction - the logic was good, the issue was with the declarations.
I commended the OP for saying it was homework and being honest about that.
Tim
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Which is a perfect example of how it should work. However, from your description, it doesn't sound like anyone jumped to the conclusion that the OP didn't deserve help because it was a homework question, which is what Ryan was complaining about.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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I don't think it's about whether it's homework or something else... it's about putting in some effort then being able to ask rational questions afterward. I'm sure a REALLY high percentage of questions in Q&A are homework, and a lot of them get help, but it's easy to see whether they've actually put some effort into finding an answer first.
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It shouldn't be about homework, but I often see people go to that response first.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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The problem with homework questions is where the line between help and solution lies. It can be very thin and that makes a big problem, as - IMHO - we should not provide solution. So we have to understand what the teacher told him and try to explain him the same thing with different perspective. However if he does not provide details we have a problem to help him...
I'm not questioning your powers of observation; I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is. (V)
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Quote: we should not provide solution.
But why not? We provide solutions to people who got a job because they told someone they could code. Why the difference?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Because the usual idea of homework is not to produce a solution per se but to learn how to produce a solution.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will be arrested for fishing without a license.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Quote: Because the usual idea of homework is not to produce a solution per se but to learn how to produce a solution.
I'm not disagreeing but isn't that the same for employment? I don't see why anyone is drawing the line between the two except for prejudicial reasons.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Quote: isn't that the same for employment?
Absolutely not. When you are employed, you are employed to produce solutions. if you learn a little as you do this then all well and good, but this isn't the main point.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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At times, the teacher might not allow outside help, because that would provide an unfair advantage over other students. An assignment might even be a take-home test.
Although, I do expect that getting help is often allowed; and I think it fairest to give the questioner the benefit of the doubt. If they are dishonest and cheating, then there is a public record. I am more inclined to answer such questions if it appears the person is using their own name for that reason, but I can see answering some questions anyway, again, the presumption of innocence seems fairest.
However, I won't answer certain questions that seem to be a homework assignment because of the form of the question.
If a teacher gives an assignment, then I presume all the necessary information has already been provided to the student. They only need to read the book, or the notes, and/or pay attention in class, and then they should be able to "try" to create a solution, and then ask a question of the form, "I did this, but that part isn't doing what I expect. What did I do wrong?" It's not appropriate to ask, "How do I do <x>?," without showing any work when <x> is clearly the major part of the assignment, perhaps even all of it.
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You give a lot of generic credit to teachers that I don't know you should. I had several really bad professors in university that the entire class would get together for hours after class to try and figure out what he really meant, which of course, made homework impossible to do. Bad professors tend to pick bad books, so the two together means that you have no resources other than potentially other professors. At my high school, there was a music teacher that was attempting to teach all of the calculus classes after she had slept her way to get the math department chairmanship. The only math class she had ever taught was a remedial math course, and it was obvious that her own understanding of the subject was questionable, and she did it despite the fact that there were multiple other teachers who had taught the course before. If my dad wasn't a math professor, I seriously doubt that I would have made it through the class.
Admittedly, I found computer science courses abysmally easy, and only made the course interesting by including far more advanced features in addition what was asked for. It didn't give me extra credit, but at least I was able to keep focused by working on an interesting problem. The only reason I know that anyone found it hard at all was from people coming to me for help.
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RyanDev wrote: but isn't that the same for employment?
I don't want to do someone else's work for them. I don't care whether they're asking because they have a homework problem they're trying to solve or a work problem they're trying to solve. The problem I have with homework is that often the little problem they need help with is the entire thing, whereas for work the little problem is part of a much larger whole.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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The difference is, that the one who has a job, probably has a base of knowledge, but missing experience. On the other hand the one who still in the learning phase will miss also the base if we provide him with a solution but no explanation...
I'm not questioning your powers of observation; I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is. (V)
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That's fair. In that case I would expect the response to be in line with that, not "we're not going to help with your homework."
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I'm not a spokesman for CP or anyone else but me  ...
And you right, that should be the line of response, that should help also the ones with homework questions...
I'm not questioning your powers of observation; I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is. (V)
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RyanDev wrote: But why not? We provide solutions to people who got a job
Its a matter of scale.
I doubt anyone's sole job is to correctly write a singly linked list. It would be a very, very small part of what they are doing.
Writing the code for a single linked list is likely all of the homework.
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So? Why not offer help regardless of magnitude of project?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: Why not offer help regardless of magnitude of project?
Myself I do offer help. But the type of help is different.
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Agreed. Assuming the person shows they have put forward the effort, help them. It is however a fine line. I think the amount of help varies based on what it is for. Homework the most abstract, regular work less abstract but not the exact code required, and for hobbyists it depends on what they are asking for. Sometimes I have a problem and I just need an example in code, not a copy/paste solution but more than hunting through the online documentation.
While still in college, I know sometimes my professors wanted us to work it out ourselves and if we couldn't figure it out, we were to ask them. This normally resulted in a similar answer to how questions suspected to be homework should be handled. "Here is how to think about it and I'm feeling generous so here is a bone... use recursion, it is the chapter we are currently studying." This helped them gauge how everyone was doing and how much help a student needed.
Throwing someone the code doesn't help anyone. It doesn't help the student because they don't learn and it doesn't help the community because we will have to support them later.
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The smarter ones disguise homework questions as work related help requests. It only takes a minute or two to add a few sentences that make it look as if the OP tried. Then watch others answer it for you for a few rep score points, and even fighting it out to see whose post gets marked as the answer. 
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Since before Q/A existed. The problem existed in the discussion fora as well.
RyanDev wrote: Whether it is homework, regular work, or hobby if someone asks a question they should all be treated the same.
Yes.
RyanDev wrote: Help if you can
Help comes in many forms. No one should be coddled. For many, the proper help is to say "try it yourself first".
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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My college days predate the Internet, so make allowances in the following. Back then, the only source of help when you were working on a programming project were either your fellow classmates or the occasional tutor. Neither of them would give you any help unless you could show the work you'd done thus far. You were expected to put forth significant effort before you asked for help.
Homework questions in Q&A are reviled because there have been too many cases where the poster doesn't demonstrate what they've done on their own, and simply asks for the code.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Quote: Homework questions in Q&A are reviled because there have been too many cases where the poster doesn't demonstrate what they've done on their own, and simply asks for the code.
True. But it isn't unique to homework questions nor do homework questions always fit this category.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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There is a distinct difference between "Do my homework for me" and "Help me, I'm stuck with my homework."
As the other have stated, put in some honest effort, don’t just post the question. You don’t want to be the bread and potatoes boy[^].
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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