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kind of funny but this actually has worked in the past
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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On a similar note… schedule the meeting you want with a guaranteed conflict with your boss. Invite the boss as optional.
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"We'll discuss this offline"
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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I HATE this statement! no we won't discuss elephant turds behind anyones back. Either we get it hashed out so everyone is on the same page or we aren't grown adults and we shouldn't be working.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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So your take is that 20 people should stay on the call while the two people familiar with databases spend 20 minutes discussing the exact type of index that a problematic database table should have?
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Bob: "...I still think we should be looking at our composite indexes. The ordering is all off which is really affecting performance."
Tom: "Yea, but we've also got 'optimizations' I think are doing more harm than good already. That other table has a pseudo-random reverse index for heaven's sake. What's the point of that?"
Bob: "True, now that I think about it that table's most common query is non-sargable too which is a major issue."
Frank: "I don't really do databases, but I heard about something called a column-store..."
Bob, Tom: "Quiet Frank."
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If we're implementing stuff and would end up talking 4 hours about a detail (and possibly duel with live swords over it, you know how we devs can be) maybe it's simply being respectful of all the other people's time. The dev who is working on the UI isn't probably interested in the implementation of the input sensors' filter, as is the engineer who's developing the PCB printing blueprint and the manager who has 10 other meetings this day to keep everyone happy.
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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It is SOP for our shop to discuss all topics offline that would turn a 30 minute meeting into a 7 day seminar event.
it works and it works well. The best part is, we all get to stay as adults.
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While I would find interesting the best implementation of a sliding mean filter in a 10uS interrupt routine, maybe the customer who just wanted an update on the development situation would love to spend his time in more proficuous activities - and so the coworkers who are working on all the rest of the software.
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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We'll discuss this offline = You have no say in this, so I want you to shut up
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Or, more often: we're about to delve in a 4 hours long debate over a minor implementation detail, maybe this is neither the place nor the time to do so.
Sometimes it is: "you understand ![Elephant | [mastadon]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/elephant.gif) and ![Sunshine | [little ray of sunshine]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/sunshine.gif) about the software whose development you're managing and we're in Europe, there are no elephants here. I will try to hack some sense in you simian brain explain the details in a second moment hopefully never because I have better things to do than try to educate dung beetles".
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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- time is money, the longer you are in a meeting the more it costs the company. you need to make that clear.
- have a clear agenda and list of topics.
- have a clear meeting duration. (15mints, 30mins, 1 hours, whatever make it clear) (goes with point 2)
- don't invite more people to the meeting than necessary.
- if meeting takes longer than expected, allow unnecessary people to leave.
It's OK if your boss wants to participate and ask questions and take part of the discussion.
If your boss want to be involve, he needs to understand the points above.
CI/CD = Continuous Impediment/Continuous Despair
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The fact that it's a "meeting" (between only 2 people) means it's some kind of event ... compared to "got a minute?"
The (unwritten) rule is: no one talks to anyone above their pay grade (without another pay grade around).
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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rnbergren wrote: Boss wants to be part of the meeting. Wants to be "in" the discussion. Thoughts on how I can keep the meeting moving along so we cover the items we need to cover?
Two people talking would not normally be a "meeting". You can't really get sidetracked or have conversations that are off topic because everyone in the meeting is in fact participating. Presumably because everyone (the two people) consider all of the discussions relevant.
Three people would be a meeting. And you have concerns about what contributions your boss would actually make.
Thus you do not have a meeting problem. You have a management problem. Might be specific to the manager in that they are not in fact contributing anything. Or in general because all meetings in the company tend to go this way.
In general businesses cannot solve process problems unless senior management actually supports and in fact demands that processes are defined and followed. If that is not the case where you are then you just deal with it. Let them babble on about their vacation plans and how their teams did. For yourself just accept it as team building. At larger companies you are perhaps more likely to be able to discuss and solve this because more managers means more of them are likely to see it as a problem. With senior level support one can have arbitrators in meetings whose role is to specifically keep the meeting on point.
But there could also be causes outside of what you described here. For example the other person in your meeting has told your boss that you are a bully. Or that your demands are non-specific and outside the normal business requirements. So your boss is in fact attempting to mediate.
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I'm with the codewitch on this one - avoid them like the plague. I never had any compunction asking the meeting to "move on", same effect as "discuss this offline".
I also found asking if I was needed for this discussion and then leaving had a curtailing effect on senior management who liked to pontificate about irrelevant crap.
Eventually I did not get invited to non essential meetings which meant I missed out on a number of social events - thank the Great Ghu.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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1. Have an agenda and stick to it.
2. Be ready to say "let's take this off-line".
3. Document everything, and send around meeting notes.
a. If done right, this may have even stopped your boss from wanting to sit in in the first place.
4. Finally be open to listening what your boss wants, and don't forget that they are the boss.
Be prepared, that last point is probably going to be the hardest one for you to follow.
You made mention that the is more management than programming, the fact is the best programmers not only have good technical skills, they also have good soft skills such as managing people, and that goes both ways.
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I also used: "We can talk about it or we can do it. Your choice.". I haven't been praised for my diplomacy but I have been praised for the efficiency.
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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Come up with some expectations of what you expect to achieve in the meeting and bring this up at the beginning of the meeting.
Such as "I have called this meeting so that we can come to a decision on x, I would like us to decide in the meeting what we will do with x by the end of our meeting time."
Then ask people if they agree or disagree with this - that way you are making it clear that they play a part in getting x agreed on.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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I have a tendency to make jokes in meetings. On one such occasion for reasons I do not recall another programmer stated there is a shortage of Priests in the Catholic Faith as the conversation somehow became off topic. The meeting was with a client a big shot Chicago Board Options Exchange trader a very successful and aggressive capitalist worth millions. So I stated "Sounds like a business opportunity" It got a good laugh. I later regretted not also stating "Revs for Rent" "You Pay We Pray"
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1) Have a goal for the meeting
2) Have an agenda for the meeting to achieve the goal and stick to it
3) Deviate from the agenda ONLY if there is a discovery that serves the goal more than the original agenda and everyone agrees
4) Schedule the meeting to end 10 to 20 minutes early so that you can table side discussions and detail problem solving that applies to a subset of the attendees. They can stay on whilst the rest can drop.
5) Invite ONLY people that can help achieve the goal
6) Document action items, decisions, and discoveries. Nobody has time for a transcript.
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Hold the meeting standing up.
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star couple (definition)
discard bin
constellation Aries
binaries
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Should really be star couples - nut nice clue. 
"I didn't mention the bats - he'd see them soon enough" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
modified 8-Jul-21 4:33am.
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Couple is more often treated as plural: the couple are getting married.
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Well done! I was nowhere near!
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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