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Do cats read "50 Shades of Prey"?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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and those black cats read 50 shades darker
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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More likely they read "To Kill a Mockingbird". They taste in theater tends toward "Bye Bye Birdie", but that's another story. And for a horror flick, "The Mouse that Roared."
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Having a meeting with another IT person in another team that supports my team.
If it was just the other individual and I. Things would be over in 30 minutes tops. Butttttt....
Boss wants to be part of the meeting. Wants to be "in" the discussion. Thoughts on how I can keep the meeting moving along so we cover the items we need to cover?
I already moved the big ticket item to last instead of first. Put that last on the agenda.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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To be honest I'm not very good at meetings, and I tend to ask a lot questions sometimes, which derails the agenda. I don't mean to, I'm just not good at meetings.
I'm great left to my own devices, with a little bit of one on one.
However, I had to get good at certain kinds of meetings because I was often a team lead. If *I* control the direction of the meeting within the scope of updating other people on the progress of a project I do okay. Beyond that, it's hit or miss.
It's a skill I've never really mastered. Sorry, I'm one of the ones that's guilty of making them run over. For my part, I do everything I can to avoid them in the first place. 
Edit: It sounds like your boss is kind of like me, except harder to get rid of. 
Real programmers use butterflies
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but I imagine once you hear something logical you would go oh ok I get it.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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hopefully
Real programmers use butterflies
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honey the codewitch wrote: I tend to ask a lot questions sometimes, which derails the agenda.
I tried that once and the team leader totally lost it.
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You have a premeeting with the important person where you come to an agreement on how to solve the problem.
If you are already in agreement it's much quicker to guide the meeting to the desired result.
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Right on the agenda, state how much time is allocated to each topic. Leave some slack time at the end of the meeting but have a reason for leaving after that. Unless someone doesn't want to reach the big ticket item, this should help keep things on track.
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Have the meeting a half hour earlier than you tell the boss.
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kind of funny but this actually has worked in the past
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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On a similar note… schedule the meeting you want with a guaranteed conflict with your boss. Invite the boss as optional.
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"We'll discuss this offline"
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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I HATE this statement! no we won't discuss elephant turds behind anyones back. Either we get it hashed out so everyone is on the same page or we aren't grown adults and we shouldn't be working.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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So your take is that 20 people should stay on the call while the two people familiar with databases spend 20 minutes discussing the exact type of index that a problematic database table should have?
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Bob: "...I still think we should be looking at our composite indexes. The ordering is all off which is really affecting performance."
Tom: "Yea, but we've also got 'optimizations' I think are doing more harm than good already. That other table has a pseudo-random reverse index for heaven's sake. What's the point of that?"
Bob: "True, now that I think about it that table's most common query is non-sargable too which is a major issue."
Frank: "I don't really do databases, but I heard about something called a column-store..."
Bob, Tom: "Quiet Frank."
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If we're implementing stuff and would end up talking 4 hours about a detail (and possibly duel with live swords over it, you know how we devs can be) maybe it's simply being respectful of all the other people's time. The dev who is working on the UI isn't probably interested in the implementation of the input sensors' filter, as is the engineer who's developing the PCB printing blueprint and the manager who has 10 other meetings this day to keep everyone happy.
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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It is SOP for our shop to discuss all topics offline that would turn a 30 minute meeting into a 7 day seminar event.
it works and it works well. The best part is, we all get to stay as adults.
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While I would find interesting the best implementation of a sliding mean filter in a 10uS interrupt routine, maybe the customer who just wanted an update on the development situation would love to spend his time in more proficuous activities - and so the coworkers who are working on all the rest of the software.
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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We'll discuss this offline = You have no say in this, so I want you to shut up
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Or, more often: we're about to delve in a 4 hours long debate over a minor implementation detail, maybe this is neither the place nor the time to do so.
Sometimes it is: "you understand ![Elephant | [mastadon]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/elephant.gif) and ![Sunshine | [little ray of sunshine]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/sunshine.gif) about the software whose development you're managing and we're in Europe, there are no elephants here. I will try to hack some sense in you simian brain explain the details in a second moment hopefully never because I have better things to do than try to educate dung beetles".
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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- time is money, the longer you are in a meeting the more it costs the company. you need to make that clear.
- have a clear agenda and list of topics.
- have a clear meeting duration. (15mints, 30mins, 1 hours, whatever make it clear) (goes with point 2)
- don't invite more people to the meeting than necessary.
- if meeting takes longer than expected, allow unnecessary people to leave.
It's OK if your boss wants to participate and ask questions and take part of the discussion.
If your boss want to be involve, he needs to understand the points above.
CI/CD = Continuous Impediment/Continuous Despair
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The fact that it's a "meeting" (between only 2 people) means it's some kind of event ... compared to "got a minute?"
The (unwritten) rule is: no one talks to anyone above their pay grade (without another pay grade around).
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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rnbergren wrote: Boss wants to be part of the meeting. Wants to be "in" the discussion. Thoughts on how I can keep the meeting moving along so we cover the items we need to cover?
Two people talking would not normally be a "meeting". You can't really get sidetracked or have conversations that are off topic because everyone in the meeting is in fact participating. Presumably because everyone (the two people) consider all of the discussions relevant.
Three people would be a meeting. And you have concerns about what contributions your boss would actually make.
Thus you do not have a meeting problem. You have a management problem. Might be specific to the manager in that they are not in fact contributing anything. Or in general because all meetings in the company tend to go this way.
In general businesses cannot solve process problems unless senior management actually supports and in fact demands that processes are defined and followed. If that is not the case where you are then you just deal with it. Let them babble on about their vacation plans and how their teams did. For yourself just accept it as team building. At larger companies you are perhaps more likely to be able to discuss and solve this because more managers means more of them are likely to see it as a problem. With senior level support one can have arbitrators in meetings whose role is to specifically keep the meeting on point.
But there could also be causes outside of what you described here. For example the other person in your meeting has told your boss that you are a bully. Or that your demands are non-specific and outside the normal business requirements. So your boss is in fact attempting to mediate.
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