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Nagy Vilmos wrote: - If the managers don't understand, it ain't n't usable!
Then 99% of my code is not usable 
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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You fell straight into the trap. What does the manager need to understand? He [probably] won't understand the code, nor does he need to. He will need to understand what it does, how it can be used, maybe who will buy it. THAT is his understanding.
Now if you look at each stakeholder, think about what they need to understand. The code may be elegant and simple but the UI is cluttered - FAIL for the user. A beautiful and simple UX with an unmaintainable heap behind - FAIL for the devs.
Think about what people want, not just what you want.
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Nagy Vilmos wrote: Now if you look at each stakeholder, think about what they need to understand.
The code may be elegant and simple but the UI is cluttered - FAIL for the user.
A beautiful and simple UX with an unmaintainable heap behind - FAIL for the devs.
That is what I always try. I usually ask the future users and their "seniors" or maintenance guys or ingenieurs when developing the concept, to make it as close as I can to their "wills" or needs.
Then I program the code in such a way, it is self-explaining. Not only for other people, but for me if I have to get back there somewhen in the future, when I don't remember anymore what I thought when programming it.
My team leader always aks... does what it has to do? Does it with realiability and without blockades? Did you finish in time or get more money for the "extras"? If yes to all... then he is happy and let me manage myself on my own.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Mark_Wallace wrote: Put a big sign on the wall:
Done.[^]
Putting it on my blog ensures that I will remember it myself!
Marc
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Coming from someone like you, Marc, that's high praise.
Let's hope a few people listen.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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This is what happens when non-developers/programmers, call the shots for too long a period of time. Half the tools that we are forced to use, we really should not be using. People use technology just because it is new, not because it is correct.
Also, most of us (I want to say all) are forced to meet unrealistic deadlines for production releases. Haste makes waste, on every level, every time.
I have never worked on a project in my 15+ year career that has not ended in failure of some sort, if we went too fast.
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I'm enjoying android development at the mo, like combile windows backend and tablet frontend.
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RugbyLeague wrote: Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
When it comes to non-Microsoft products, I completely agree. Just getting all the pieces working for a relatively simple Ruby on Rails website deployed (dealing with version changes in Ubuntu, Apache, Passenger, not to mention Rails), all of which require editing config files, changing source code or loading gems that let you still use "legacy" code (especially in the constantly changing Rails ORM) is enough to get me running back to Windows, C#, etc. And don't even get me started on the insane state of web development with the myriad of [the next awesome framework]-js "stuff."
The thing that annoys and saddens me about the state of affairs is the old adage, point a finger at someone and you have four fingers pointing back at you. Because at the end of the day, we have only ourselves to blame.
This is the other edge of the open source sword that nobody seems to be talking about -- that anyone can create a framework. While I rant occasionally about Microsoft, there is at least some sense of direction and a certain degree of cohesiveness and product integration. Sure, there's quite a few dead ends (Silverlight, WPF, Object Spaces, etc.) but when, for example, I wrote an article on the history of C#, I came to realize that there actually does seem to be a master plan, and a good one, at work. I would say the same thing of Windows itself, even though I loathe W8.
Conversely, the OS community often seems like a monster flailing in its own excrement, hoping the sh*t will stick somewhere, with only an occasional diamond being dredged up, but unfortunately still covered in sh*t.
Marc
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Thank goodness, I thought it was just me . I spend longer thinking about other peoples frameworks than it would have taken me to write half the things from scratch .
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Don't get me started on frameworks
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RugbyLeague wrote: Don't get me started on frameworks
I wish that that phrase had been on everyone's lips for the past few years.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Andrew Torrance wrote: I spend longer thinking about other peoples frameworks than it would have taken
me to write half the things from scratch .
I just had to upvote this.
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Maybe you just need a new job?
I think that there are two types of programmers, career programmers and "I'm doing this because I love it" programmers, and there's nothing wrong with either, I would say the industry needs both.
If you do it because you love it and you are working in a place designed for, and with other, career programmers, you're going to have a bad time!
Equally, if it's just a career for you, and you're working other programmers who would be there even if nobody was paying them, it's going to suck.
So maybe you fall into one category, and you're working at a company designed for the other category?
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RugbyLeague wrote: Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
Ahh, I believe I see the problem. Put the web down, and take a step back.
Before the web, there were other types of things that required programming. In fact, it turns out that there still are things that require programming not related to the web; plenty of it.
I would argue that you should give up hacking, and shift over to programming 
This guy may need some help Drones[^] (Hopefully he is not planning on connecting it to the web).
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The problem is I am being asked to do web stuff - not something I have ever done before. It's like wading through treacle.
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After translating the new word you just taught me, "treacle", to "molasses", I would agree.
Ironically, I think that would be a good name for "The Web", "The Treacle", or the "Inter-treacles"...
If you like programming, find a job that requires the type of programming and tools that you enjoy.
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I started my own business to develop the tools I enjoy. Unfortunately I sold it
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Sounds like a case of Android development with NDK.
modified 20-Oct-19 21:02pm.
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RugbyLeague wrote: I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools...
So, nothing is new...this is what we do right? Maybe a vacation is in order? Cheers 
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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I woke up and found myself in the Era of Developers fighting with tools other than working on the solution!
I'd really like to know how real programming was like back then, maybe, individually, as Java Maniac, can contribute to it! 
<£dward>~c0d£~
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Well, I worked on COBOL/Fortran/PL1 systems on minis (TI and Prime) - there were no frameworks or anything like that on those computers - you had the language, a screen package and an ISAM package - no Google so you had the various manuals (in the case of PL/1 on the Prime we didn't have a manual so I taught myself looking at the Primos source code) - we had Emacs with Peel (emacs lisp on the prime) which was about the only difficult tool to get to grips with)
Of course since then I have used C, C++, C# and various languages of my own design
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Try living with the massive source control nightmare IBM Irrational Clear Case. 
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RugbyLeague wrote: I think I have had enough. I still enjoy programming but there seems to be very little of it around any more. I spend my time fighting with the tools rather than working on the solution.
Deployment is an utter farce. Source control is hideous. Web Services are appalling hacks. Web development is a massive step backwards dragging all manner of shonky technologies and libraries together.
Rugby, you're not alone here. The programming field has gotten very confusing and is, in many ways, a pain-in-the-ass.
The gig I'm on ought to last another 5 or so years. (I'm the SME for a product that's being phased out). I've been at this for nearly 40 years now. (I'm 56). I have developed my own technology for developing products for Windows desktop, mainly. (Yeah I can do a little web development, but nothing approaching what I can do on the desktop). It's based around the 2008 version of Visual Studio and a few other tools. Like you, I'm sick of fiddling with the tools and all the attendant upgrades, etc. What I have in my toolbox is it, as far as I'm concerned. When they stop working (unlikely, Microsoft desktop ain't going anywhere) then I'll just go drive a bus or work in my wood shop.
I still love programming: I write some applications for my own use (I've developed a nice budgeting system and some other things) and I am automating the co-op farm we're involved in (in exchange for our share). I do have a couple other "products" under development but whether I ever market and sell them or not ... who knows? Having fun doing that. As a "career", though, I really think I'm through with it. I've discovered life recently. Even bought a motorcycle which I've wanted to do for years and am spending more and more time in my woodworking shop.
We've paid off everything except the house and we're working on that. I think there's life after programming, though as I said, I still love doing it but in a more relaxed way when I feel like it.
-CB
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Sounds like you have it pretty much sorted.
My wife is talking about us buying a small holding and running a campsite - we are vintage VW bus owners - so that would be a good option.
I will still program, I enjoy programming language design and compiler writing so would keep my eye in with that
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CB.. WOW!.. I could have written your EXACT reply ! I'm 54, sounds like I do a *litte* more web work than you do, however same here (winding down, bought a motorcycle, paying it all off, *finally* doing some LIFE stuff after a 35 year career in computers! )
To Ruby, I agree with quite afew here, change it up, do something FOR YOU in programming. Get it lighter and on a dev cycle that YOU like and get back to enjoying what you like to do - with out the hassles. And scale it back to enjoing it... not sweating over it.
I have tossed out MANY of the tools and issues that frustrate me, and started enjoying simpicity of *programming* instead of hacking everything to get it all working.
--C
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