|
Marc,
I really enjoyed reading your comments. I think they've created a great discussion on this entire idea. I agree with you on most of them.
First of all, I think that a lot of what taints the Agile Manifesto Principles is business itself.
There are so many terrible places that are "Agile" and they are nothing close.
Then, there are the problems inherent in the principles themselves such as "deliver working software frequently..." as you pointed out. Most companies are not going to stomach a project without an up-front estimate on time and $$$ so how would this even be possible? How can we just deliver the "minimum viable product" and continually say, "it'll be done some time in the future"?
There are obvious gaps (and even problems) in the principles. As a matter of fact, I don't believe that 99.5% of the companies out there would ever succeed with Agile.
That's because as @sahibgora so correctly pointed out in a message below : "After 25 years and multiple different "methods", I feel that it all depends on the people."
However, there is something that I like about The Agile Manifesto Principles.
When I think of how I do a project on my own, it is an almost exact copy of what the Agile Principles describe.
I bet it is the same way for you.
If I were able to build a team of people who were like-minded, who always kept the goal of what the customer wanted in mind and always drove toward "working software" and people who fought for the product so it would satisfy customer needs (and not fighting for something that the individual dev wanted just because they wanted a technology or whatever) then I think the Agile Principles as stated are fantastic.
But, in 99.5% of companies, it just ain't going to happen. However, I do think that using Agile as guiding principles can help. As guiding principles they are great but whenever a company gets ahold of this type of thing some manager starts thinking about how s/he can manage the process and make his/her life simpler and then it goes down the drain.
I do wonder why you disagree with "working software as the primary measure of success". When I'm building my own software that is totally the ultimate goal. I'm assuming again, you are saying that companies really don't focus on that. However, if the "working software" is the product then I am totally confused by why they wouldn't consider the finished and working product their measure of success??
Great discussion. 
|
|
|
|
|
It is pretty obvious that various management people have romanticized the Agile process. I see it as another way to get work done. IMHO, you must determine if the work is suitable for Agile before jumping in. Some projects should be Waterfall until it reaches the stage where core goals are met and a minimum viable product is delivered; then it can switch over to Agile as improvements and additions are made. Unless it's a web site or application, I'm in the camp that says you need to be at version 1.0 before transitioning development processes to Agile.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
|
|
|
|
|
Foothill wrote: Some projects should be Waterfall until it reaches the stage where core goals are met and a minimum viable product is delivered; then it can switch over to Agile
That's a really great idea.
However, hybrid ideas like this don't sell books and managers do not like to think about exceptions so we cannot accept it as a valid solution. 
|
|
|
|
|
I would like to think that you're joking but I've seen it in action.... 
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
|
|
|
|
|
raddevus wrote: as implemented at many BigCorps by managers, but not all.
raddevus wrote: If you just read the Agile Principles
Read it, threw it away. The core idea is nice (preferable to waterfall) but there is so much bullshit attached.
The truth is that every situation is different and requires a somehwat different approach. What works for one set of people, fails for another for many reasons.
After 25 years and multiple different "methods", I feel that it all depends on the people.
Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer.
The End
|
|
|
|
|
R. Giskard Reventlov wrote: After 25 years and multiple different "methods", I feel that it all depends on the people.
100% agree with that. You are completely right. I posted an answer to Marc up above (The Lounge - my reply to Marc[^]) that talks about that too.
|
|
|
|
|
Hmm: supposed to be a thumbs up but not showing when I save. Odd. Anyway, all good points raised and discussed.
There is no single right way to do software development but there are a myriad of wrong ways.
I don;t belive that there is a single right answer but there are plenty of wrong ones.Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer.
The End
|
|
|
|
|
R. Giskard Reventlov wrote: There is no single right way to do software development but there are a myriad of wrong ways.
That's a great quote and a great summary of the reality of it.
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks - happy to have made it up!
Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer.
The End
|
|
|
|
|
swampwiz wrote: this was the worst pile of excrement that software development has ever managed to produce
It was written in Ruby. What do you expect?
|
|
|
|
|
|
swampwiz wrote: this was the worst pile of excrement that software development has ever managed to produce
I don't know, Minnesota DOT gave it a run for the money.
Minnesota sorry for botched vehicle registration system
It's still a mess...
Common sense is admitting there is cause and effect and that you can exert some control over what you understand.
|
|
|
|
|
As part of your PIP, I exepect to see our current error reporting dialog replaced with a more elegant solution that has the option to send error reports and show sponsored content. The error reports should contain the offending source code reconstructed via reflection by parsing the exception's stacktrace, and improvements for correcting the code per standards. Code review will be done by myself, please schedule 30 seconds per line on my calendar in outlook.
|
|
|
|
|
the manager/customer can always ask for anything.
your job is to figure out how to do it, effort required ('lines') and completion date [to schedule the 'code review' in their calendar].
'reasonablity' only comes in to it if they expect you to finish it in a ridiculous time frame, for unfair compensation and/or it's something that is not possible with the resources and/or information available.
'what you feel about it' only matters to you and if you want to do it or quit that job.
This internet thing is amazing! Letting people use it: worst idea ever!
|
|
|
|
|
I tend to disagree.
They can ask for anything, true.
However I see it as one of my primary tasks to provide solid advise to customers/managers/... Even if they don't like the answer. It's my job to protect them from their own stupidity, as you will.
So how I "feel" about it is as important as doing the job itself, IMHO.
In the case they keep their foot down, you'll have to give them what they want of course  (But you have a "I told you so" up your sleeve)
|
|
|
|
|
Disclaimer: I know nothing about you, your skills, or possibly your team. Also it's unclear what platform you're using or the specifics of the request. I will say this:
2b1f wrote: offending source code reconstructed via reflection by parsing the exception's stacktrace, and improvements for correcting the code per standards.
This is extremely difficult. Borderline impossible depending on the specifics of the situation.
Does this extend to pre-compiled portions of the project such as DLLs? If so, reconstructing a higher language from assembly/MSIL/whatever is no simple task.
Even if this is not pre-compiled, how will you determine the "offending code"? Debugging is difficult for a reason; not everything is obvious.
Even if you can determine offending code, how would you suggest improvement? If this technology existed we'd have debuggers that could fix all erroneous code themselves already.
As I interpret it (and I very well may be wrong), this problem would require creating the most advanced debugging AI currently known.
EDIT: You do you though, I don't mean to discourage. If you pull it off hook us up with a VS plugin
modified 10-Jun-18 2:57am.
|
|
|
|
|
2b1f wrote: Code review will be done by myself, please schedule 30 seconds per line on my calendar in outlook.
translation: "I am a buffoon who is completely up myself"
The rest probably doesn't matter.
Peter Wasser
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
2b1f wrote: and show sponsored content.
An error report does not need ads. I'd refuse.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
|
|
|
|
|
in this case, may be I can ask for the example ads from customer relation team. Then tell the business they will be showed on a crash page to look like a spyware
|
|
|
|
|
So, you are either new and really don't know what you are doing and this is not the first time, since he has put you on a PIP which is NOT a good thing.
or....
You need to find a new job as this guy is an a**hole, and quite full of himself.
Based on my experience, I am going to "bet" you are in the first scenario. In that case, do what he asks or get a new job, but I would lean to doing what he asks. The reason you are having a problem with all of this is that you are probably new and have no clue how to implement his ask. -- I could be wrong. If I am not wrong, then even more reason to do what he asks and try to learn from your mistakes.
-- good luck
|
|
|
|
|
BTW, what is PIP?
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
|
|
|
|
|
Performance Improvement Plan, PC-speak for "being put on probation".
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
|
|
|
|
|
PIP - Performance Improvement Plan. You put people on a PIP, and if they don't improve, you fire them. This guy is on a PIP, which lends me to believe he is a mess and will probably get fired soon.
|
|
|
|
|
Plausible.
Peter Wasser
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
Slacker007 wrote: PIP - Performance Improvement Plan. You put people on a PIP, and if they don't improve,as part of a bureaucratic process to generate the paper trail needed to fire someone you've already decided is a lost cause and needs to be fired, and then you fire them.
FTFY based on how they often work out in the real world.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
|
|
|
|
General 
News 
Suggestion 
Question 
Bug 
Answer 
Joke 
Praise 
Rant 
Admin 
Submit an article or tip
