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F-ES Sitecore wrote: People saying blockchain is "secure" is like people saying Apple Macs are secure. They're not, it's just that no-one has the motivation to attack them. Yet.
There are a LOT of people with motivation to attack it; even verbally, arguing from ignorance. There is a financial interest in manipulating it, as well as a political interest.
It is hard to "hack" the hash; it is nigh-impossible to attack a chain of hashes on different computers, regardless of your (computing) power.
Doesn't mean that it cannot be stolen or taxed, but that was not your premise 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: It is hard to "hack" the hash; it is nigh-impossible to attack a chain of hashes on different computers, regardless of your (computing) power.
It's ironic you talk about ignorance yet clearly don't understand what I mean by using many bad actors to take over the network. I'm not talking about using computer power to hack the hashes.
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Take your argument and prove it; shouldn't be too hard to get a lot of bad actors to influence BC 
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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I don't have the resources, but governments do.
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No, they don't.
If they did, they would have used it by now.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: If they did, they would have used it by now.
To gain what? You think China or Russia are going to deploy a huge tech project to disrupt bitcoin? Why would they care about that?
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F-ES Sitecore wrote: To gain what? You think China or Russia are going to deploy a huge tech project to disrupt bitcoin? Why would they care about that?
No, the US. Where politicians shout it is used for tax-evasion and by criminals and terrorists
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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So you expect the US to disrupt a private enterprise like bitcoin because they say it is used for tax evasion and crime? So is the internet so why isn't the US shutting that down too? If they wanted to shut it down they'd legislate, no need to do something underhand that might harm their reputation and democracy.
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F-ES Sitecore wrote: So is the internet so why isn't the US shutting that down too?
Dunno. If someone told Trump that he can shut down something Al Gore invented, he'd probably do so
F-ES Sitecore wrote: If they wanted to shut it down they'd legislate, no need to do something underhand that might harm their reputation and democracy.
There's no need to shut it down directly; discrediting works well enough. Harming US reputation and democracy is left to the Americans themselves, doesn't look from here like you need help with that.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Dunno
The same reason they haven't shut down Bitcoin.
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Sander Rossel wrote: Since it's a cryptocurrency I assume they use blockchain as well.
Their own hand-rolled version, yes.
Sander Rossel wrote: I get it, blockchain is great and awesome and super secure, but it's still "just" technology and I simply refuse to believe any technology is "unhackable" no matter how secure it is.
Believing is done in church, as a programmer we do not believe but research. The hashcode itself would be hard to crack; please explain how you would replace the lists of hashcodes on multiple computers that you have no acces to?
Write one, and you'll get a much better idea what you are talking about. Start here:
A blockchain in 200 lines of code – Lauri Hartikka – Medium[^]
Sander Rossel wrote:
However, for most practical uses it's not security that's the issue, but, as said, the mining of hashes
That's not an issue; if mining was cheap, then BC would not work. It takes less resources than getting gold out of the ground and is a lot less polluting.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Sander Rossel wrote: Please explain how anything is hacked?
I don't know, I'm not a hacker, but it still happens a lot!
How often is SHA256 hacked again?
Sander Rossel wrote: And then there's this: Bitcoin Mining is more Polluting than Gold Mining - Digiconomist[^]
Aw, come on; BC is generated by using electricity, in some cases even "green". Mining gold means using a lot of environmentally unfriendly chemicals, which are often dumped nearby, polluting the area. There is no way of environmentally friendly gold.
Digiconomist is spouting crap 
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: How often is SHA256 hacked again?
Once every mihoye? 
And it should be doable with quantum computers or so I'm told, which isn't a very distant future.
Anyway, they should've used MD5 instead!
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Digiconomist is spouting crap
They're the only ones comparing it to gold, but they all say BC is quite polluting!
I for one don't want to live next to a polluting BC mining serverfarm 
Anyway, I've learned from this thread that the BC mining process is just their implementation of blockchain, so the expensive/pollution point only goes for BC and not other blockchain implementations.
That makes it a lot more doable for regular businesses as well, I might even look into it!
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Sander Rossel wrote: Once every mihoye?
And it should be doable with quantum computers or so I'm told, which isn't a very distant future.
Haha, and so it would be "theoretically" possible? How?
It is not even the hash that is the problem, but the amount of ledgers
Sander Rossel wrote: They're the only ones comparing it to gold, but they all say BC is quite polluting!
And you believe them? Seriously?
Sander Rossel wrote: I for one don't want to live next to a polluting BC mining serverfarm
Afraid of loose bits that come to byte you?
Sander Rossel wrote: Anyway, I've learned from this thread that the BC mining process is just their implementation of blockchain, so the expensive/pollution point only goes for BC and not other blockchain implementations.
No, it's not; a blockchain and mining are two different things altogether. Mining should be expensive.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Like any security system its only as good as its weakest link - Somewhere there will be one, irrespective of the technology used and usually it will be at the human interface!
Hi
Welcome to your super secure Blockchain protected bank account
Please can I have your first and third pin number
Sorry didn't quite catch that, please say again your second and fourth pin numbers.
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That link you described (the human factor) is present in all currencies; it is even there for gold.
Doesn't make crypto's more secure or insecure than gold. Your argument is therefore m00t.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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True the weakness is in other systems as well , but the point is that having a more supposedly 'secure' system is irrelevant if there are other weaker links!
Plus the big downside of Blockchain on a large scale is the sheer cost of all those transactions in monetary as well as infrastructure and environmental costs. Without some other technology break through Blockchains are going to be problematic for most applications.
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Bob1000 wrote: True the weakness is in other systems as well , but the point is that having a more supposedly 'secure' system is irrelevant if there are other weaker links!
It's not; you don't use an unlocked door instead of a locked door simply because your spouse is a "weak link".
Bob1000 wrote: Plus the big downside of Blockchain on a large scale is the sheer cost of all those transactions in monetary as well as infrastructure and environmental costs.
Monetary costs? Which, if you transact from wallet to wallet? There is none! Environmental cost is another nonsense-argument; it is a lot lower than actual cash.
Bob1000 wrote: Without some other technology break through Blockchains are going to be problematic for most applications.
That's vague as can be; despite your promise of problematic, it is used. Doesn't look like it is going away either.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: It's not; you don't use an unlocked door instead of a locked door simply because your spouse is a "weak link".
Yes but you don't buy a more costly door with a lock if its not required - see below!
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Monetary costs? Which, if you transact from wallet to wallet? There is none! Environmental cost is another nonsense-argument; it is a lot lower than actual cash.
Unfortunately there are, every Blockchain change requires the participant in the chain to be updated or at least enough of them. One of the reasons it takes a lot longer to process a Bitcoin than a credit card payment (if using pure Bitcoins).
i.e. Every is processed, not once but multiple times (its a blockchain!), this doesn't come for free - read data centers, networks etc, all cost with environmental impacts.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: That's vague as can be; despite your promise of problematic, it is used. Doesn't look like it is going away either.
Yep - vague as I don't know what the solution is!
Not saying there isn't a role for blockchain technology somewhere, but as it stands its not that good a performer in terms of efficeincy.
Bitcoin took another dive this week based on an article with similar points to above
Bubble trouble? Bitcoin hits one-week low - London Business News | London News | Londonlovesbusiness.com[^]
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Bob1000 wrote: Yes but you don't buy a more costly door with a lock if its not required - see below!
Enough people do.
Bob1000 wrote: Unfortunately there are, every Blockchain change requires the participant in the chain to be updated or at least enough of them. One of the reasons it takes a lot longer to process a Bitcoin than a credit card payment (if using pure Bitcoins).
i.e. Every is processed, not once but multiple times (its a blockchain!), this doesn't come for free - read data centers, networks etc, all cost with environmental impacts.
A minor bit of electricity on PC's that are already turned on.
Bob1000 wrote:
Yep - vague as I don't know what the solution is
No, vague because you are trying to project a problem where there is none.
Bob1000 wrote: Not saying there isn't a role for blockchain technology somewhere, but as it stands its not that good a performer in terms of efficeincy.
The free market claims otherwise.
Bob1000 wrote: Bitcoin took another dive this week based on an article with similar points to above
Yes, the dives are highlighted, yet still it climbs. Or are other currencies just sinking?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Sander Rossel wrote: It's not as secure as they make you believe.
This statement is not simple to back. There are several aspects of security. If we talk about security on the fabric level, yes it is that secure, specially if we talk about public and widely adopted network (i.e. Ethereum, Bitcoin). But then there is:
User Security: As with any system your credentials are as secure as you make it. If are not be careful with your private/public key pair, it will get hacked and your funds will be stolen or someone will generate a transaction on your behalf.
Provider Security: Some providers (like exchanges) store your private/public key pair in an insecure manner, it can be hacked and your credentials may be exposed.
Smart Contract Security: They are nothing more than programmable logic that runs on a blockchain's fabric. If it's not well programmed it can expose security flaw. For example if you program a smart contract that transfer a custom token you developed and you don't take measures to verify the owner's identity, that flaw can be exploited.
In any of those cases, the security of the fabric is not broken and you can actually see things happening (it's completely auditable), despite not being able to do anything about it.
Sander Rossel wrote: More importantly, it's really expensive to generate those hashes (or nonces to be precise)!
That's not true at best, because you're generalizing. First, it's only as expensive as the hashing difficulty level of the network (it can be on purpose, like bitcoin)l
Second, this is specific for Proof of Work consensus algorithm. We have many more, to name a few: Proof of Authority, Proof of Stake, Proof of Elapsed Time...
All of those require very, very little computational power (for example the an Azure B1sm VM can be a Proof of authority blockchain minter (not miner), which is actually a very cheap and small machine)
Sander Rossel wrote: Not going to happen for about 99.999999% of the businesses.
That's shortsighted, with different types of consensus algorithms, we don't need that much computational power. I have been working on blockchain projects for big corps for a while now and I got exposed to many types of business that not only are using it, but are actually expanding its usage.
Sometimes, specially on private networks, and inter company business, the actual costs are negligible.
There is a lot of hype I admit, but there are also a lot of problems that it actually solves. I see businesses that are in this for the hype, but it's far from being only that.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I guess for me blockchain == Bitcoin, while I know that's not true.
Your post simply proves that I don't know jack sh*t about the subject except the general idea and the Bitcoin implementation
Fabio Franco wrote: I have been working on blockchain projects for big corps for a while now and I got exposed to many types of business that not only are using it, but are actually expanding its usage.
Can you tell a bit about the use cases?
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Sorry for taking so long.
Yes, I can tell you a bit about a couple of use cases:
Inter-company settlement: With programmable smart contracts and a token implementation a lot of inter-company transactions and accounting can be automated. Even payments. There can be a direct link between the custom cryptocurrency and Euro in such a way that speculation is not an issue. The settlement cease to even be an issue and with a private network, legal entities can all have blockchain authority nodes eliminating the need of trust. There is the possibility to give a node to tax authorities so trust is not an issue when it comes to paying taxes. We can get reduced costs and mitigate risks of legal fines while also making it impossible for actors inside the company to manipulate numbers which can cause all kinds of harm, therefore inhibiting personal agendas.
Voting: I participated of a pilot project to count the votes of an election process. The idea is to give transparency and validation to the vote counting process (not for actually voting). I also helped writing this white paper wich goes into details of the objectives of using blockchain for the elections. The pilot happened in the Netherlands and the code is open sourced. So there is a lot of material if you would like to explore more.
So, in summary, blockchain is waaaayyyy more than bitcoin. To me bitcoin is a blockchain 0.1 alpha release and currently we are in Blockchain 4.0. The thing is that it's not mainstream yet, so there is a lot of misconception and little widespread material about it. To make it harder, there are many different implementations of blockchain (like JS frameworks).
The materials we find about blockchain many times only talks about it so make it too theoretical and hard to grasp. It's not until you get hands-on the code that you can actually realize how it really works.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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