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Well - we've had work done by (youngish) contractors (outsourced). I'll be generous and call it shyte. The good-to-great coders are going to be inspired. Self-taught, even if in the CS courses, because they just can't help themselves.
Taking the course - with the idea of it being a lucrative vocation "with a future" - is only producing a bunch of drones who actually could be replace by software that rights software.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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When Kimmy (the one with the bad hairdo) or some other troll detonates some nukes in earth orbit, or the sun decides to have a huge coronal mass ejection , all 'obsolete' knowledge will quickly come back into highest demand.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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All hail the mighty abacus 
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And all you will hear is:
"How do you get WiFi on this thing?"
"Where's facebook?"
"When I swipe left, nothing happens."
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Nah, swiping left still works...that's how you move the beads
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There would be nothing to swipe since the phones were all dead.
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We would not fall back that far, but even ending up at the level of the early 20th century would be devastating. We will be in even bigger trouble once nobody is left who knows how to build something manually without any computer assistance. In any case we often would have to make do with knowledge that has survived in books, no matter how old.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Soroban makes more sense in the base 10 system.
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You have to start somewhere and besides you can't hardly get a programming job without a degree but. Not sure I'd go for the higher degree in CS but might in EE?
I may not be that good looking, or athletic, or funny, or talented, or smart
I forgot where I was going with this but I do know I love bacon!
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I always say the same.
The best I learned in college was / is how to learn on myself.
What I learned was clear for me it was only to pass the exam in 95% of the times. And I count me as lucky, because I can say that 5% of what they showed me is still useful for me.
Nowadays... they are giving data to the students, but they are not educating / teaching them how to use their brains in most of the cases.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Quote: The best I learned in college was / is how to learn on myself.
Exactly same experience here!
It does not solve my Problem, but it answers my question
modified 19-Jan-21 21:04pm.
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A CS degree, is 100% not necessary to be a successful and talented software engineer, and hasn't been for years.
I find the degree to be as useful as a 5-inch bolt in the skull.
Oh, and by the way, doctors these days don't drill holes in the skull cap to release evil spirits...at least I hope not. My point - keep up with the times, or get a new job.
modified 22-Oct-18 12:03pm.
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Forogar wrote: A large part of it was learning the history of computing
 You cannot understand where you are going until you understand where you have been.
To answer your question, it depends on what degree it is and where your degree is coming from. For example, having a degree in Computer Science from MIT, CalTech, or Stanford is an order of magnitude better than one from your local college or university. There are several elite schools in each field. Also, degrees in most STEM tracks have a much better chance of landing a job in your field upon graduation.
To sum up, the harder it is to get the degree the better the degree is. If one is not willing to pursue a hard degree, they would be better off jumping straight into the workforce.
IMHO, nobody with a Gender Studies degree is going to get a high-paying job......ever.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
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Foothill wrote: To sum up, the harder it is to get the degree the better the degree is.
Personally I'd say a university degree might help someone get a higher-paying job quicker, but ultimately how long does it take for that extra money to cover the cost of getting that degree in the first place?
Regardless of the degree, if you're any good, eventually you will make good money.
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I know that talent throws all assumptions out the window  . I read an article some years back about college degree return on investment. It put degrees from MIT and CalTech at the top. The school's are the two costliest to attend but they also provide a much higher starting pay.
This is all generally speaking that is. Statistics are one thing, reality can be different for individuals.
I wish I could still find that article.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
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Foothill wrote: This is all generally speaking that is. Statistics are one thing, reality can be different for individuals.
Definitely. Circumstances also play a big role. You gotta be where the demand is.
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dandy72 wrote: how long does it take for that extra money to cover the cost of getting that degree in the first place
My degree cost me £0 
As for the thread in general, these types of threads always elicit the same two reactions;
"I didn't get a degree and I'm amazing. Everyone I know without a degree is amazing too, and and everyone I've known with a degree is rubbish."
"I have a degree and I'm amazing. Everyone I know with a degree is amazing too, and and everyone I've known without a degree is rubbish."
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Good think I (tried to) remain neutral in my initial response. 
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I think it largely depends on your line of work. If you do nothing but making webpages talk to some database or another then I don't see why a degree should be a requirement. There are many other areas of software where a wide breadth of knowledge just isn't required and, to me, the means a degree really isn't necessary. On the other hand, I work in the automation business where the bottom line is controlling machines that do actual work. There is a very large number of different areas of science that I have had to utilize over the years. Several times they were areas I had never studied so I had to get a "crash course" in them. In my case, I find that out of my college education there is only about 10% or less that I haven't used at one time or another. This is exactly the opposite of what I hear from most people. In my opinion, to do what I do a degree definitely IS required. In general software engineering, not so much.
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Well, I started my working life with an apprenticeship (my choice). Set me up in a far more practical way than a degree (which I took later) and I got paid whilst I was doing it! I don't think they have those sorts of apprenticeships any more (which included one year at college learning theory and history). If it all went tits up, I could go back and do that work and, sometimes, I miss it.
But I agree, not everyone is suited to going to university and it shouldn't be the default path - a path where you end up with a piece of paper and a debt mountain. The only way to differentiate yourself is to go on and take a masters or phd. My nephew just got his masters and is now working in a bar!)
A degree, of itself, does not mean you're smart. Or employable.
Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer.
The End
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100% yes at least with STEM careers. Nearly every HR company filters on degree first so without one you won't even get eyes on your resume/CV. You're up against hundreds if not thousands of other applicants and they can't read every application. Even if you get through, you're at an enormous disadvantage. Consider that companies don't necessarily want "the best." They want the safest choice that can get the job done. Degree = safety (to some extent). No degree = risk.
As much as I despise this system, that's how it is. I've gotten to about eight final interviews over the past 2-ish years, some for senior positions, and when I don't get a call I always reach out to whoever my HR contact was to ask "What could have strengthened my candidacy in the final steps of the process?" The couple responses I've gotten were a degree. Which is why I'm currently finishing my degree so I can land a decent job.
As far as apprenticeship vs degree, I like the middle-ground. I have a friend that is a lineman (works on power lines, transformers, etc). The way they do it is basically take a 4-year degree, strip out all the unrelated classes, then you do both schooling and an apprenticeship for those years. I believe the first year is just schooling but apprentices also get paid a fair wage (it isn't free labor like many CS/SE internships). After the schooling, you'll still be an apprentice until your mentor signs off that you're ready to go at it on your own.
Side Note: Nearly all those interviews I've landed the company used a test project to filter candidates which is why I imagine I made it into the process without a degree. Many companies don't bother doing this. Also I can only speak to the US.
modified 22-Oct-18 12:50pm.
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Jon McKee wrote: 100% yes at least with STEM careers. Nearly every HR company filters on degree first so without one you won't even get eyes on your resume/CV. You're up against hundreds if not thousands of other applicants and they can't read every application. Even if you get through, you're at an enormous disadvantage. Consider that companies don't necessarily want "the best." They want the safest choice that can get the job done. Degree = safety (to some extent). No degree = risk.
As an acquaintance of mine put it ~15 years ago, the Bachelors Degree has become the modern white collar union card. It's not a necessary or sufficient condition to prove you're qualified to do a job any more than Grandpa's plumbers union card ever was; but without a BS/BA you'll be locked out of a very large fraction of today's jobs just like he wouldn't be allowed on most large construction sites without his card.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Forogar wrote: Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines.
The old ways are the best ways. You still need to know how a carburetor works for when the zombie apocalypse starts, or the world otherwise falls into anarchy. The vehicles you see in Mad Max don't fix themselves, after all. Abandon this knowledge at your own peril.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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