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A well: There's always moonshine! 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Mark Twain
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According to statistics from the biggest union here in Sweden, the developer salaries lie somewhere between £3000 and £5000 per month (if I have converted the sums correctly according to the current exchange rate). Then it depends on your experience and responsibility of course.
A senior lead developer would be closer to the high end of the scale.
Hope this helps.
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Mark Twain
modified 12-Dec-18 9:40am.
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A senior lead could definitely be higher than that.
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Well, I've only programmed for 40 years, and I'm definitely not over the top here... May have sold my sold to the devil too cheap! 
Haven't got any project leading responsibilities, though, which may be the explanation. Or the fact that I'm in Stockholm, not Gothenburg 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-
Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Mark Twain
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Johnny J. wrote: Haven't got any project leading responsibilities
That makes a difference.
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Did someone pull your thumb?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E.
Comport Computing
Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Questioner:
Hi am developing RFID Writer in C# but i do not know how to start developing
Me:
Take a class.
Questioner:
where ??
Me:
I always though everyone in India was going to school to learn to be a developer - or a call center person.
Questioner:
Actually I dont have not much time to learn if there is any online course please suggest me .
Me:
If you "don't have not much time to learn", your career as a programmer will be short and chock full of disappointment. Good luck in whatever vocation you choose next.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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"Hi, I need to do brainsurgery tonight, is there some online course I can take?"
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Well, according to U.S. TV advertisements, if you sleep at a Holiday Inn Express, you can be a brain surgeon; no online courses required.
Magic
Holiday Inn Express Surgeon - YouTube[^]
General surgery/brain surgery, who's counting. The fact is, that once you sleep at this hotel, you become a god.
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Since half the population is brain dead already, you only have a 50-50 chance of messing up.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I always though everyone in India was going to school to learn to be a developer - or a call center person.
22% live in poverty, which in India is set to $1.25/day (adjusted for purchase parity). At least that same percentage of people are technically above poverty, but still super-poor by world standards. So, yeah, not everyone's in a call center.
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Nish Nishant wrote: 22% live in poverty, which in India is set to $1.25/day (adjusted for purchase parity). At least that same percentage of people are technically above poverty, but still super-poor by world standards.
Is this due to the caste system there, or other socio-economic factors?
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Multiple socio-economic factors, historically poor (talking centuries here, not decades), being under hostile foreign rule until recently, etc. The caste system is a whole other issue, but it is not the main reason for all the poverty, in my opinion.
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It still leaves hundreds of millions to call me (several times a day) to have me renew my microsloth license or get rid of those virus' they've detected because I owe the IRS money.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Me:
Take a class.
I thought you were then going to add "Create a constructor method, add some properties, that should do it".
Dilbert's equivalent[^]
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I think what amazes me more than anything about this sort of attitude to becoming a developer is that back in 1982 when I got my first computer(a 48k ZX Spectrum) there was no world wide web.
You just bought magazines and learnt from the manual and friends, training courses were whatever exercises you could find in books. There was nobody there to motivate you outside of your own thirst for learning.
So now with the huge amount of information out there for free, as well as free IDEs, people still find it difficult to motivate themselves to learn?
I think your final point sums things up fairly well - if you can't even start somewhere, it's probably not the right career path for you.
Maybe I am just a heartless old curmudgeon.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Yeah - most younger/newer devs don't know how good they actually have it, because they didn't have to develop in the 80's...
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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And you lot don't know how good you had it, because you didn't have to develop in the 60s.
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As I was writing my post I was actually thinking that.
In the 80s were were lucky, we had screens - that said on my first year of my computer science degree we were only allowed around three hours of computer time a week, pretty much everything had to be written on paper.
Before the 80s it was probably switches and lights on a metal box.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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GuyThiebaut wrote: switches and lights on a metal box.
That would have been an advance! What we actually used were punched cards, invented by Joseph Marie Jaquard in 1804!
(The cards used in computers were invented by Herman Hollerith sometime before 1890; they were used in the 1890 US census.)
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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GuyThiebaut wrote: Before the 80s it was probably switches and lights on a metal box.
Not completely; we did have paper tape and card input, and compilers. But most things were run in batch processing so turnaround was slow. One of the most fun systems I worked on was the 1004, which you programmed by plugging wires into Computer Plug-Board - Univac, Model 1004, circa1965[^] . That was then connected on the side of the computer (which had 1024 bytes of memory) and hey presto, the program would run.
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Flipin eck!
That's quite something.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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It does feel like I was smarter back in the early 90's when I began making a living as a programmer. BRIEF was the editor (hackable editor way before Atom), Btrieve was the database manager and Microsoft C 5.1 was the compiler. I could double indirect pointers no problem. Managed my own damn memory thank you, always calloc, never malloc and free the pointer when you were done. Three hole binder Runtime reference was your help file.
Heck, I could even make sense of the MAKE file.
Nowadays way too much VooDoo in those frameworks I have to use.
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BRIEF and C 5.1... Ah, the good old days when my brain still worked - which was lucky because I actually had to use it to do my job! 
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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GuyThiebaut wrote: I think what amazes me more than anything about this sort of attitude to becoming a developer is that back in 1982 when I got my first computer(a 48k ZX Spectrum) there was no world wide web.
You just bought magazines and learnt from the manual and friends, training courses were whatever exercises you could find in books. There was nobody there to motivate you outside of your own thirst for learning.
So now with the huge amount of information out there for free, as well as free IDEs, people still find it difficult to motivate themselves to learn?
I think it's more the other way around. Computer Programming has become a widely demanded job that pays reasonably well. Unlike the 80s and early 90s when programming was a niche job that you only pursued because you thought it sounded like fun; a lot of today's programmers are only in it for the money. Of course they're not motivated to do anything beyond the laziest possible ![Elephant | [mastadon]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/elephant.gif) ing minimum.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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