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gggustafson wrote: I disagree that there is any "change" in the industry.
Computers are everywhere now. 
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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So? So is programming all of them!
Gus Gustafson
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The original point I responded to was about only updating programming languages every 5 years. Technology moved much slower back then and so it worked. It moves way too fast today to stay on a 5 year update schedule. Things have changed a ton!
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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The world in which programming occurs may change rapidly, but the art/science of programming does not. Consider COBOL. It hasn't changed in years. Yet most mainframe financial software (that drives most of the world's economy) is written in COBOL.
If one accepts Dijkstra's writings, one must come to the conclusion that programming languages are tools, just like screw-drivers and pliers. Their worth is not how often they change but rather how well they were initially conceived. Of all the languages that I've used, Pascal was the cleanest. X3J9 did nothing but to formalize the User Manual and Report. Wirth made one error - you could not link modules together (the reason that Pascal could not compete with C).
But look at C#. Releases almost yearly. How can a serious programmer keep up? I program using tried and true methods, not the latest fad. So as C# has "advanced" I have remained static knowing I can program everything I need with C# V3 and the Win 32 API.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Gus Gustafson
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gggustafson wrote: The problem is really systemic to the programming community
We are the problem _and_ the solution. 
gggustafson wrote: except we don't have a programming community!
Very true. it's the wild, wild west out there a lot.
I mean just read a couple of StackOverflow answers and you'll know that no one agrees on anything. 
Well, except that everyone agrees that every dev is disagreeable.
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raddevus wrote: gggustafson wrote: except we don't have a programming community!
Very true. it's the wild, wild west out there a lot.
Isn't CodeProject a great example of a community ? Do you think "community" is dependent on lack of conflict, lack of strong opinions, lack of diversity ?
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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BillWoodruff wrote: Isn't CodeProject a great example of a community ? Do you think "community" is dependent on lack of conflict, lack of strong opinions, lack of diversity ?
Yes, I definitely think of CP as a community.
I was just saying there doesn't seem to be specifically focused community related to directing future dev practices. It would be quite difficult to get such a body of people together.
I think the original Agile people did that (when they got together and came up with the Agile Manifesto[^]) --- before Agile even had a name.
But, yes, CP is actually one of, if not the absolute best, communities for devs. There are few (maybe no other) sites where devs of all types come together the way they do here, even amidst all the wild opinions and personalities.
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@Raddevus Hi, If there's one thing I am sure of, it's that I'd be proud if you thought I was in your community 
I consider some of the Quora groups, like [^], and [^], and various SIG groups at the ACM [^], to be virtual communities where you often find people sharing/discussing topics at higher levels of abstraction than specific OS's, languages, hardware.
cheers, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
modified 25-Jun-19 21:09pm.
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BillWoodruff wrote: If there's one thing I am sure of, it's that I'd be proud if you thought I was in your community
Well, I feel the same way about you. 
There are a lot of great people here at CP and they always challenge me to think different. 
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I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Me either. I wouldn't join an organization that would have you as a member. 
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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You both members here, no? 
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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After discharge from the service, I didn't join anything. Not even the family at the dinner table. 
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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That'd be the only service I refused to do 
Good to hear it cured you.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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#realJSOP wrote: I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member.
Ok, you're out!
Does that mean you'll join now?
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I would join just to observe what makes you tick 
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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Standby to be disappointed.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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There are programmers/engineering professional associations (something like the IEEE or ACM).
A lot of states/countries have professional organizations, mostly engineering, that oversees the profession, including programming.
I'd rather be phishing!
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Neither the IEEE nor ACM provide the services I suggest to production software developers. The former is primarily hardware; the latter is primarily academia. I have belonged to both.
Gus Gustafson
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Forget ACM and IEEE. ACM is run by academics, for academics, as a place to get your lame-ass theory paper published, but not so frequently as a place to find high quality papers of use to developers in industry. IEEE's focus is not primarily on software, though they have some stuff of greater relevance to software folk.
The ACM has a code of ethics. It's a verbose document with no actual requirements for behavior. It's full of "should" language, no "shall" or "shall not", and no penalty for noncompliance. Most state Professional Engineer ethics standards have actual requirements and actual teeth. The standard of behavior for Certified Public Accountants is also better.
It's very unfortunate that the PE certification in most states doesn't cover programming, and requires too much understanding of methods of mechanical engineering. Otherwise it would be an excellent choice.
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The problem is ... defining a "professional programmer", I think.
I class myself as "professional" - but I'm sure many would disagree because I write code with an eye to specification changes and maintenance rather than "clever code".
And many that I'd class as unprofessional* would disagree because "their code works" (despite it being assembled from bits found on Youtube and SO it compiles, and that counts as working as far as some are concerned).
Add in JSOP's fun and games with required certification recently and the prospects get remote because he isn't the only one who is going to squawk about the waste of time spent getting a piece of paper every year or two that says "I really do know what I am doing". Particularly when the current bits of paper just say "I can pass an exam in this".
When you also think that pretty much every country on the planet is pushing the young into software regardless of inclination, ability or (in extreme cases) active brain cells it gets even harder to set up a good association.
It'll come - eventually, and over a lot of shouting - when it becomes obvious that the whole world relies on software and the current crop is woefully poor quality. But just like doctors, pharmacists, teachers, et al, it's going to take a long time because the bad developers either don't realise they are poor, or they don't want to be found out.
* Third try: the first two descriptions were obscene
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Well said old boy
We can’t stop here, this is bat country - Hunter S Thompson RIP
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One problem you overlook is what is meant by 'true engineering.' In order to become a professional engineer you must have deep problem domain knowledge. I graduated as a mechanical engineer, but never got professionalized. If you want a true 'software engineer' in the terms you are talking, they will have to have non-software engineering training to be proficient with the big engineering picture of their designs. Or the ability to pass an engineering exam on the relevant topics to their software project. It will require much more time and money to obtain than even my mechanical engineering took.
For a fascinating read (at least to me): Engineer's Ring - Wikipedia
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I agree, I started life as a Mechanical Engineer which is probably why I over engineer most things - but it pays off in spades when I need to extend / change something
We can’t stop here, this is bat country - Hunter S Thompson RIP
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I avoided using the word "engineer" for the very reason you provide. However, if this professional organization can guide academia then the word might be able to be used. I'm suggesting Congressional charter.
Gus Gustafson
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