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I have nothing to add, other than: this is the best thread that has ever been on CodeProject. 
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I am amazed no one mentioned project creep....
"Oh, can you add some mushrooms?", once you already folded the omelet.
A programmer, like a woman's work, is never done.
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Slow Eddie wrote: "Oh, can you add some mushrooms?", once you already folded the omelet.
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You cannot estimate creative work at all. We, the software engineers, only pretend it's possible to avoid the job-risking discussions with patrons. It is all just gut feeling, based on prior experience with similar tasks. The more experience the engineer has, the better the estimation will be.
I think the best way would be to handle it like Scotty in Star Trek: Estimate for yourself first, tell the captain 3 times as much, make it in 2 times as much, and be admired for being the wunderkind. 
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2 things:
1 - The more time spent getting a requirements document and initial design correct, the better the estimate. Too many weak managers (i.e. not leaders) push to get "something" instead of the right thing, and the team and customer pay for that later.
2 - If a manager cannot or will not stand up to the customer (internal or external) and push back in order to manage the software development life cycle correctly, then that person lacks the leadership, management, and sales skills necessary to do the job. An effective manager makes an understandable and convincing case for doing things the right way. In the end, customers want success, not headaches and broken promises. Managers that do their job because they read how in some book, learned in some course, or got certified in some methodology are likely to fail. All those sources of information are good, but if the manager cannot synthesize that information into their experience, insight, and intelligence to figure out how to best manage a given project, then that manager needs to step aside or be replaced.
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Great points.
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Upon completing the omelette, and the patron then requests that it be 3 egg omelette and not the 2 egg that you delivered, what do you do?
- Cook a 3rd egg solo and sit it next to the other omelette.
- start from scratch.
- Cook the 3rd egg then when nearly done add in the complete omelette hoping that it looks like it merges together.
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A better question is, why are estimates that try to give specific timeframes important at all?
I understand giving a broad swath, so the business can decide to pursue a project or not: if the estimate is "wow, this is huge", maybe they figure it's not worth doing.
It seems that we've demonstrated time and again that for any non-trivial projects, estimates of completion are not only not accurate, they're mostly wildly inaccurate. Not necessarily due to the estimated work itself, but other things get in the way like support of current systems, illness, life events, whatever.
It seems to me that it's a lot smarter try to break big projects into releasable chunks, and understand your dependencies. Then you might be able to say something like, "when step 1 is done, we'll start on step 2. Step 2 should take X days/weeks/months from its start date (which may not be immediately after step 1 completion)".
If you can get your steps into small enough chunks to be understandable, you'll probably have a bit more success getting close to the time. Presenting things in this way makes it more understandable for non-technical people to understand dependencies and the fact the development does not have constant speed, and that they can also see progress on the overall project as we're ticking off steps.
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Great post and I agree.
agolddog wrote: It seems to me that it's a lot smarter try to break big projects into releasable chunks, and understand your dependencies. Then you might be able to say something like, "when step 1 is done, we'll start on step 2
That's really the core of Agile Scrum*.
* I know that this could start an entire other thread about Agile and what it is and what it is not.
But what you've defined really is what the Real Agile advocates.
Will the real Agile please stand up? Please stand up.
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The problem was the (single) omelette.
It should have been 2 eggs, bacon, toast, etc.
You then get to deliver piece meal: the customer stays "hungry" (enthusiastic) because they're getting a steady stream of "ready" deliverables that can be consumes and / or assembled if so desired (egg sandwich?). Someone else may repurpose it later into an omelette.
You cut back or delay certain deliverables without delaying or sacrificing the most desirable parts of the meal.
The Master said, 'Am I indeed possessed of knowledge? I am not knowing. But if a mean person, who appears quite empty-like, ask anything of me, I set it forth from one end to the other, and exhaust it.'
― Confucian Analects
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Pretty slick!
Technician
1. A person that fixes stuff you can't.
2. One who does precision guesswork based on unreliable data provided by those of questionable knowledge.
JaxCoder.com
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Don't know if they're using that trick 'live' on that page, but on IE, the page renders, then immediately after it's done, the browser content is cleared and the window remains empty. I can only see the content for a fraction of a second.
I could hit Refresh and read about 3 more words and keep doing that...
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F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5...
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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dandy72 wrote: but on IE
What's IE? Does that stand for Incurable Experience?
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It's sad that we have to be that creative to do something as simple as highlight text in a text area...
While it's pretty cool and I certainly have no better way to do it, it's still a dirty hack 
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Sander Rossel wrote: still a dirty an awesome hack
FTFY!
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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It's five years old. That's an eternity in internet time. It still works in the latest version of firefox and that is surprising.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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Cool! When's CodeProject going to adopt it for comment and article posting?
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Oblivion as a mod for Skyrim: The Elder Scrolls: Skyblivion - Teaser Trailer - YouTube[^]
Does that look pretty, or what?
I loved Oblivion - not quite so fond of Skyrim, the story didn't "gell" for me and I didn't get such a sense of freedom. But ... Skyrim graphics, and mechanics with Oblivion story? Now, where did I leave my Ebony Blade, the Gray Cowl of Nocturnal, and Azura's Star ... ?
There is a much longer "gameplay" demo as well: The Elder Scrolls:Skyblivion - Gameplay/Q&A - YouTube[^]
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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I agree, those dragons in Skyrim were only put in for commercial purposes imho 
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I think it was the whole "legion or stormcloaks" thing - I wasn't fond of either group and would happily have slaughtered them all. Especially as I was playing as an Argonian ...
But to progress you have to "Pick a side".
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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big same. I mostly ignored that conflict except where i couldn't. a pox on all of them.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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