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well, i wasn't sure that you hated me before, but now i am. 
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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Na, it does the job. More or less. I reckon that it does not *completely* fullfill that other requirement of yours that it should not make web development suck. 
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in 2006 microsoft was finally embarrassed enough to discontinue it and instead hide its functionality in sharepoint.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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I think it's burried just next to clippy.
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I killed clippy myself, and I'll never tell where i hid the body, except it's the first place you'd look if it wasn't the last place you'd expect.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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Wow, I just had a flashback to PWS and the little merlin looking character! Fun times!
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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I wrote a kids' educational package using that Merlin animated character. Fitted onto 5 floppy disks and was a lot of fun. Written in VB3... happy days. (No, really!)
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With my limited experience with web technologies and having spent some time with the various libraries.
I have found that DHMLX works far better than some other supposedly better coded ones, e.g. Telerik ones. Using such libraries shaves off a lot of development effort.
Also, DHTMLX has far better documentation that any I've seen.
And the magic you're looking for is called JavaScript, there's also bootstrap. 
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you're probably right about the javascript, as I've had better luck sanitizing, or rather "sanifying" my code using say, jquery than i have using CSS 3 - the layout issues still plague me. There's so many corner cases
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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I have been using bootstrap's CSS library for almost all my development and it more or less does the job well.
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a lot of people use that. i have at times, but it's still a slog
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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honey the codewitch wrote: There's so many corner cases
True, but at least we now have border-radius... remember when we had to position <img> tags over the corners to get rounded borders? 
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that's not quite what i meant
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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I know...
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honey the codewitch wrote: is there a better way to do it?
I have found that repeatedly banging my head against a wall, while swearing and wailing, lessens the suckiness of web development.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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i'm not sure how i feel about that.
On one hand, misery loves company.
On the other, it means it's less likely I'm missing The Big Secret that makes it all work happily.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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In all seriousness I am not sure there is a perfect solution for web development.
Every time I hear someone enthuse about a new amazing framework that solves one issue it always brings another issue with it.
That said if I was starting from scratch I would perhaps use React for the front end, microservices on the .NET side(.NET core even using a repository/orchestrator pattern) and as a datastore use something like MongoDB.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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There are two reasons why I still smoke: 
0: web development
1: extrovert in-laws/neighbors/acquaintances who require daily therapy
My workload has shifted over the last several years so that I now spend at least half of my time on web development. The only things that makes it bearable are improved IDEs, jQuery, massive q/a resources, and enough time (around 20 years) doing it to build a decent warchest of JavaScript functions...some of the oldest still work!
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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yeah, *sigh* that's like I figured the landscape would be. *headdesk*
that's also how you know you are working with something that is a Big Ball of Mud
Maybe if we took a few of the more active working group committee members hostage they'd step up their game.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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I agree with you: web "programming" is a bloody mess; a Frankenstein chimera of mark-ups and toy-language mutated into Godzilla.
Cross platform = Death by a hundred Frameworks.
However, I see some beacons of light, like the work my old friend Andrej (Lidor Systems) is doing with his Angular controls that can be used for stand alone apps, as well as with servers.
cheers, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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i saw angular could be used to build standalone apps, which i thought could be either really cool or really awful. 
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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honey the codewitch wrote: could be either really cool or really awful.
I haven't tried making a stand-alone web app: what do you think the down-sides could be ... other than the complexity of programming to Angular ?
Andrej keeps encouraging me to "get into" Angular, and I have great respect for him: I still use his fantastic WinForm controls.
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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well, just off the top of my head, my designer tools for winforms are better than the designer tools for angular, regardless of how good they are. it's still web dev.
maybe i'm setting the bar too high.
but it's 2019.
We got the cyperpunk dystopia the scifi writers promised us, we're getting to the self writing code, but after all that even now CSS/HTML/JS is still like the Department of Motor Vehicles of coding - it stinks like old office buildings do and everything takes longer than it should, and nobody is in a position to *actually* help you with anything important.
I would never give up my desktop tools and frameworks to use the clusterfark of offerings for web stuff, if given a choice.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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