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agolddog wrote: Unfortunately, they work here.
They may use the forums, but they certainly do not work here.
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No, no, "here" is where I am. Not your "here".
Also realized it's an iterative thing, not linear. Start out as a hack, think you've got a pretty good handle on things and have moved up.
Then, a year later, you look at the code you developed when you thought you were getting a pretty good handle on things and think, "what a hack".
Of course, there are some who never endeavor to improve and think they're decent developers, but really just stay on the hack level.
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Ah, thanks for the clarification. in mitigation see the third sentence at The Lounge[^].
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I went to school to learn to be a "Production Supervisory Engineer"
Basically, I watch other people work.
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I think it's because:
- people don't know what your title means,
- but it sounds pretty really important
so you get to keep that job just in case something that matters breaks if you weren't there.
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I see time has brought you some wisdom, grasshopper.
Now if you divest yourself of all ambition you will be truly free.*
* Eating regularly isn't all it's cracked up to be.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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when I was young the people behind the bench/desk at the bank were called "tellers."
apparently it's insulting to call them that now.
give it a few more years, "programmer" will be an insulting title too.
one things for sure, the "tellers" were way less obnoxious and far more efficient than today's "customer liaison executives" or whatever they are called this week.
... 'would you like the combo pack or just your own money.'
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What do folks use now? Always know them to be tellers or cashiers etc.
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Attempting to give a serious answer, of the three, "Developer" seems to fit more into what I do and can be thus described:
I plan the whole shebang: interface(s), databases, &etc. and then make it all happen. Not just the logic of the code but the logic of the process - and usually in a manner that leaves easy access to enhancements without breaking existing dependencies.
(At least in my dreams).
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Quote: (At least in my dreams).
some people have huge dreams. Others well I just am happy I got my pants on
To err is human to really mess up you need a computer
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Software Engineer it is called now
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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I've always called myself that.
/ravi
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when we stop using mainframes or mini computers that needed specialists to program them.
I'd rather be phishing!
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When we stopped programming computers via wires.
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And Assembly Language
So many years of programming I have forgotten more languages than I know.
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Contrariwise, assembly language is coding.
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When we switched from similes to metaphors.
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Slow Eddie wrote: When did we become "Developers" rather than "Programmers"? 
And what the he*l are "Coders" and what is the difference?
I started out as a coder, simply by writing code. When I learned the details of the language and learned to write an application without putting procedural code in the events and got paid for it, I became a programmer.
Developer was when I got my education, and requires a bit more than knowing how to program; it suggests you know a bit about databases, webservers, protocols and security.
The first is a bit of a hacker. The second a strong amateur, the third should be someone who doesn't just writes a program, but who can explain when NOT to automate, and what benefits to expect from both options.
Similar to the "three levels of cooking" series on Youtube. My current cooking-skill is just below level 1 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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That part sounds like a marketing spin on the term "programmers".
But there are practical distinctions between programmers (developers, coders, etc) and engineers.
Programmers are those who know how to productively efficiently write code to accomplish a purpose. If a professional, they understand why they choose the coding solution they use for a given problem domain. Some very experienced, very knowledgeable people choose to stick to being programmers because it suits them and the type of work they want to do.
As for software engineers, Merriam-Webster defines engineering (in general) as:
Quote: a: the application of science and mathematics by which the properties of matter and the sources of energy in nature are made useful to people
b: the design and manufacture of complex products
Software engineers are also programmers. But they look at a project beyond just the code at hand. They consider value engineering, systems requirements and limitations, the full software development life cycle, can manage a project, manage developers, do architecture, interface with customers, etc. That is not to say some programmers are not capable of doing all this, but we are talking about roles, not individuals.
The reluctance to hire good software engineers is why development teams typically have a BA, a scrum master, as well as developers and QA folks. A good software engineer can replace the BA and scrum master functions and produce a better product quicker and better. Why? Because the software engineer has the BA and scrum master knowledge domains within their total knowledge domain. BAs and scrum masters do not have the software development knowledge domain within their knowledge domains. That means an inefficiency is introduced by communication and translation to BAs and scrum masters, and that leads to an accumulation of small delays, mistakes that have to be corrected, and sometimes missed deadlines.
It is not about one being better than another. Software engineers need to trust the skills of their programmers, and communicate project details and status to all, as well as mentor programmers who want to grow into software engineers. Programmers who have not yet obtained the broader knowledge and experience of a good software engineer need to recognize that, and return the trust.
Differences can be seen as competitive, or hierarchical. Or, they can be seen as complementary as all part of the whole.
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This means that my daughter is a developer or maybe a software engineer. She has a master's in marketing and spends all day drawing web screens for business. She knows nothing about programming. She studies what the customer needs to know and how they react to screens.
So many years of programming I have forgotten more languages than I know.
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Sounds like your daughter is a UI/UX developer. That is not the broad area of software engineering, but it is a vitally important part making the project usable and look good.
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Programmer - Someone that positively enforces proper grammar.
Developer - which sounds like Devil oper is someone who operates under H*llish conditions
Coder - Cod is a fish so its a specific type of fisher person. They like cod.
Full Stack - pile of pancakes or flapjacks.
Analyst - going to leave that one alone...
I didn't verify any of this with google, duckduckgo or bing, I just copied the letters from my keyboard and pasted them randomly on the screen to what you see now.
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Because everyone now is a programmer.
You can program your phone to alert you for an event, schedule meetings store phone numbers and dial them, etc.
The programming environment is the user interface.
A developer actually writes the applications that can be used programmed by the average user.
m.bergman
For Bruce Schneier, quanta only have one state : afraid.
To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, you must also be well-mannered. -- Voltaire
In most cases the only difference between disappointment and depression is your level of commitment. -- Marc Maron
I am not a chatbot
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When one started to sound better and more professional than the other. The distinction is mostly a subjective one of status. Whatever looks better on your resume! 
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Programmers became programmers when hackers became political and software became a commodity.
phoenixDownunder
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