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I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

honey the codewitch1-Feb-20 4:34

1-Feb-20 4:34

The grammar for python is ridiculous to me. Significant whitespace being the leading cause of my WTF.

But I just taught myself python so i could try out some particular python code in C#

I'm looking through some examples and i find this gem:

Python

multiple = 1024 if a_kilobyte_is_1024_bytes else 1000

Which presumably means

var multiple = (a_kilobyte_is_1024_bytes)?1024:1000;

WTF

and then there's pass.

Pass seems like it should never exist in any language.

That is all.

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Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

OriginalGriff1-Feb-20 5:13

OriginalGriff

1-Feb-20 5:13

Not just "significant whitespace" but "significant matching whitespace".

So two identical seeming lines can be unmatched because one uses TABs and one uses spaces.
Heck, even the editor you use is significant in Python.

I'm becoming convinced that it was designed because the author thought VB wasn't quite "Mickey Mouse" enough. Sigh | :sigh:

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Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

honey the codewitch1-Feb-20 5:19

honey the codewitch

1-Feb-20 5:19

It's a shame, because there's a lot to like about python but the grammar always turned me off of it.

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Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

dandy721-Feb-20 5:20

dandy72

1-Feb-20 5:20

honey the codewitch wrote:
and then there's pass.

Pass seems like it should never exist in any language.

Like, a keyword?

Maybe it's there to serve as a warning...those who know, should pass on any language that has a "pass" keyword...

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

honey the codewitch1-Feb-20 5:29

honey the codewitch

1-Feb-20 5:29

Yeah, it's a keyword. It's like a non-op used to cajole the parser into accepting a "statement" where you don't want one. Or at least that's what I've gleaned of it so far. There may be other uses.

In any case, it's ridiculous.

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Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

englebart3-Feb-20 4:39

englebart

3-Feb-20 4:39

Sounds like Fortran's CONTINUE statement.

Basically a NO-OP.

It was used to help structure loops or it could be the target of a GOTO.

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

Richard MacCutchan1-Feb-20 5:21

Richard MacCutchan

1-Feb-20 5:21

honey the codewitch wrote:
Pass seems like it should never exist in any language.

Ha ha, I just used it today for the first time.

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

honey the codewitch1-Feb-20 5:28

honey the codewitch

1-Feb-20 5:28

did it make you feel dirty? Laugh | :laugh:

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Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

PIEBALDconsult1-Feb-20 7:27

PIEBALDconsult

1-Feb-20 7:27

Always be wary of scripting languages.

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

kalberts1-Feb-20 8:28

kalberts

1-Feb-20 8:28

Some are worse than others. Tcl is far worse than Python.

This is not an objection to your statement. Quite to the contrary. Scripting languages are bad.

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

honey the codewitch1-Feb-20 8:29

honey the codewitch

1-Feb-20 8:29

I generally am. I haven't found one I like yet.

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Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

Gary R. Wheeler1-Feb-20 12:05

Gary R. Wheeler

1-Feb-20 12:05

honey the codewitch wrote:
Pass seems like it should never exist in any language.

The equivalent of Python's pass in C, C++, and C#. Most useful as a loop body when the loop construct does all of the work.

Software Zen: delete this;

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

honey the codewitch1-Feb-20 12:12

honey the codewitch

1-Feb-20 12:12

ah, fair enough. Gosh, I don't like the look of it though.

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Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

Chris Maunder3-Feb-20 3:08

Chris Maunder

3-Feb-20 3:08

I always feel dirty when there's the need to do that. I usually just unravel the loop construct so there's a loop body.

cheers
Chris Maunder

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

Gary R. Wheeler4-Feb-20 13:28

Gary R. Wheeler

4-Feb-20 13:28

Same here. I have an inherent distrust of while loops with more than 3 or so condition expressions, and I despise for loops with termination conditions that are unrelated to the iteration.

Software Zen: delete this;

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

Brady Kelly2-Feb-20 21:55

Brady Kelly

2-Feb-20 21:55

The Python seems more readable that the statement with a ternary expression. I have just started learning python, but the `if/else` is very clear to me.

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Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

Member 91670572-Feb-20 22:47

Member 9167057

2-Feb-20 22:47

The different order of notation doesn't seem that worthy of a WTF. That's just a bit getting used to, nothing more.

The real WTFs with Python I've seen are negative notation for hexadecimal numbers instead of two's complement and the inability to find the entry point in anything remotely complex because Python doesn't have a main method, it's just a script language evaluating from the top. Doesn't help when debugging control flow.

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

Peter Shaw3-Feb-20 2:55

Peter Shaw

3-Feb-20 2:55

HA HA HA.... Excellent.

COBOL 2 point O

What goes around, comes around.

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

Gary R. Wheeler4-Feb-20 13:32

Gary R. Wheeler

4-Feb-20 13:32

Peter Shaw wrote:
COBOL 2 point O

One of my claims to fame is that I've successfully avoided learning COBOL, even though a couple of my positions had me skidding really close to it.

I seem to remember one of the [dis]honorable mentions in the Obfuscated C/C++ Contest was a header file that let you write 'C' in a form closely resembling COBOL. As I recall, it was voted "Worst Abuse of the Preprocessor" that year.

Software Zen: delete this;

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

Peter Shaw5-Feb-20 1:27

Peter Shaw

5-Feb-20 1:27

Unfortunately it was pushed upon me with great vigor during my University Years. One of my programming teachers was an ex British Telecom COBOL programmer (Where talking 1994 ish here) and she was absolutely rabid about the virtues of the language.

She used to fail assignments for stupid things like putting 2 spaces in a comment line where there should only have been one, she treat code layout and formatting like it was a fashion statement and refused to even mention the names of any other languages.

Thankfully, the "digital electronics" parts of my studies covered C/C++ and my accountancy part had some Pascal parts... so that stopped me from going insane Smile | :)

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

obermd3-Feb-20 3:05

obermd

3-Feb-20 3:05

honey the codewitch wrote:
and then there's pass.

Pass seems like it should never exist in any language.

And the rest is a Fail.

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

Kirk 103898213-Feb-20 3:27

Kirk 10389821

3-Feb-20 3:27

As someone who taught a few CS courses...

for a NEW programmer, the Python Syntax makes MORE sense than the C style syntax.

x = 3 if I_Need_A_Small_Number else 3333

which is even cleaner in error checking:
addError("You can't have this") if X = 0
addError("You can't have this") if Y = 0
...
showErrors()

This was a feature of DEC Basic-Plus 2 (I called it an outside if) and in a world where something had to be tweaked in a block of code, and you did not want to affect program flow... Wow, it was a gift.

The C syntax is best explained as a "fake function" IIF() => X = IIF(cond, true_val, false_val);
but invariably the kids ask the correct question: Wouldn't that be BETTER/CLEARER syntax? (And I would explain that is why we have a PRE-PROCESSOR, LOL).

And again, I LOVE the PL/SQL DECODE() statement, which is "?:" on Steroids:
X = Decode(v0, V1, R1, V2, R2, V3, R3, R4) -> Where R4 (the extra param is the ELSE condition)
It is literally a CASE statement in function form!

That said. Python has ONE THING I absolutely hate. THE WHITESPACE inequity. I wish they treated a single tab as 2 spaces. Life would be simply. My editors convert Tabs to spaces. But ONLY when I edit a line. OMFG this might be bad in Python. LOL.

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

honey the codewitch3-Feb-20 5:12

honey the codewitch

3-Feb-20 5:12

significant whitespace in a programming language is just a terrible idea

Real programmers use butterflies

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

patbob3-Feb-20 7:27

patbob

3-Feb-20 7:27

I don't get the hate on python. It's a typical 1980s language. It is what it is because it's a product of the time it was invented in. You can't apply today's values to a language whose syntax was designed almost 40 years ago and expect it to hold up. Yeah, I know C was around back then, and is the dominant syntax today, but back then, C didn't have much penetration and Fortran was king. Python is kind of an ugly stepchild of Fortran, and shows it.

I live in Oregon, and I'm an engineer.

Re: I knew i was suspicious of python for a reason

honey the codewitch3-Feb-20 7:51

honey the codewitch

3-Feb-20 7:51

patbob wrote:
Python is kind of an ugly stepchild of Fortran

The explains a lot. Honestly, I didn't know Python was that old.

However, significant whitespace there's really no excuse for in any language, as the problems with it - both lexing it and using it - were pretty well known by the 1980s, AFAIK.

Sigh | :sigh:

That's why i'll never adopt it. Half my editors won't even work with it very well. (tabs to spaces can easily kill a python program)

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