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Did you get the "how was your experience today?" email from them?
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I agree.
Would a black background be better? (I don't think so.)
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But-but-but it's all about making pages look cleeeeeean, and scrollbars and control edges make everything look too busy.
Whatever. But as far as I'm concerned, a web page and a pamphlet serve different purposes. Don't turn one into the other.
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dandy72 wrote: scrollbars and control edges make everything look too busy
ms says that the scrollbars vanish to allow people to focus on their work (the morons actually use the word "focus").
Everyone else in the world says that they can't focus on their work because the f***ing scrollbars keep vanishing.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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There is nothing like "let's just quickly do something before starting the next big task" and then half an hour later be so annoyed with what was supposed to be a simple task on a simple web page that you can't even concentrate on your actual work anymore.
My plan is to live forever ... so far so good
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This.
I used to be able to position the mouse on the down arrow button at the bottom of a scrollbar and leave it there, so as I'm reading text, I can just keep hitting the mouse button to bring up the next couple of lines and keep reading.
But since the scrollbars (and the button) now disappear, clicks register against the canvas, and not on the scrollbar, which is no longer there, so the click events do nothing. So, I have to move the mouse around to bring back the scrollbar, then reposition the cursor on top of the down button, then click it. Then a second later the button disappears again, so I have to repeat every time I want to scroll. Using the cursor keys isn't always an option, as you can have multiple levels of windows each with their own scrollbar, so the cursor down event might be going to the wrong target. Positioning the mouse on the button removes that uncertainty.
Needless to say, this is not improving usability.
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When I see sites like that I like to inspect the code and more often than not I discover something that leads me to believe (with a high degree of confidence) that the site was written in Ruby on Rails. Or maybe Django. Not that I haven't seen horrid sites written in Microsoft tech, one only needs to look at Microsoft's own site and Office365 online.
It's a free-for-all out there, and the web development community is in free-fall. 
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Option 1:
Marc Clifton wrote: and the web development community is in free-fall.
without parachutes
Option 2:
Marc Clifton wrote: and the web development community is in free-fallfail.
FTFY
Choose one 
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Marc Clifton wrote: It's a free-for-all out there, and the web development community is in free-fall
Years ago I was basically being moved away from a traditional desktop client/server app developer role into a web dev role. Then a few months ago I told my boss I had to go back to something I'm more familiar with because--I told him bluntly--as a software developer, that's not what I had signed up for. Portfolio diversity be damned. It had come to a point where I dreaded getting up in the morning. It's not that I couldn't hack it, I just hated every aspect of it.
If I can make it to retirement without ever having to do web development...I'll be happy. If I can't - I honestly would consider an early retirement. I just can't find the motivation for that crap.
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dandy72 wrote: If I can make it to retirement without ever having to do web development
<snicker> I made it, just.
Now looking at fiddling around with web design in my copious spare time, haven't touched any code in months.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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If there's one thing I won't be doing with my "spare time" once retired...it's web development. Unless it becomes a whole different ball of wax by then. However, based on its 20+ year history, I don't see it happening.
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I'm all in favour of ham-fisted, messy, badly-designed pages for people's personal sites (if a guy wants to have his say about something or just be a part of the Internet, he shouldn't have to study for three years to do so), but the slightest sign of unprofessionalism in site design for a company makes me not want to risk doing business with that company.
For me, not being willing or able to do a job well means not being willing or able to do a job well.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Unused space is a waste of screen real-estate.
I've been given a machine with a heavy graphics card, and at a high resolution half of my screen is often empty on most webpages. Most games use the space more wisely.
Also, I am a big fan of WinForms, and as someone already noticed, it scales horribly 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: at a high resolution half of my screen is often empty on most webpages.
And here I thought fluent design (isn't that what it's called?) was supposed to solve that.
Web developers must be made to test against everything between 800x600, and all the way to 4K IMO. Native, not rescaled.
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Going to cost too much, simple as that.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Web developers must be made to test
How about we just start with that then?
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Reminded me of "big pants and I cannot lie[^]".
My fault, or did you aim for it?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
modified 3-Mar-20 19:16pm.
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You missed the point, tracking an item should be a challenge as they are not really interested in you finding it so - crappy web design gets blamed for deliberately obscure edit controls.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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What I do in such case.
I select everything on the page. (Ctrl-A)
Usually that shows all items on the screen, visible or not.
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Yes but you're missing the point - some overpaid, di@khead, management puke thought this would make him/her/they (?) look REALLY cool at the next Management Bull@hit Bingo fest (sorry, 'meeting').
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Quote: Why do so-called designers think that large areas of blank, white space is a good thing?
Of course, white space is a good thing. Walls of components and or text aren't inviting your users in. Reading on a monitor or tablet isn't the same as on paper. https://uxplanet.org/the-power-of-whitespace-a1a95e45f82b[^]
Quote: In the good old days the key thing about displaying information on a screen was to provide such information in a compact, readable form
The reason we crammed everything on a screen in 'the good old days' was because of technical limitations, not because it was easy to use or inviting to use. Also, users usually had no alternatives, so how they felt in practice about it didn't matter.
We have some of these applications at my current client. They are horrible.
As for your example: I agree that that is bad UX. But it's not a good example of why whitespace is bad.
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I couldn't agree more. User interfaces especially those of UK high street banks are appalling but nowhere near as poor as the UK government web sites. These have been designed to guide you through a process that you find it hard to circumvent.
It's almost like someone took a script / flowchart out of a book and tried to turn it into a web based menu driven system. When I access the site I want to see a log on and log out button somewhere near the top of the page, nope, all of this is hidden until they have determined what you "might need to do today". Then it's a matter of answering 4 or 5 questions with button clicks which take you from one page to the next. Almost as though someone thought, "hey we'd better keep the pages small but lets have loads of white space to make it look clean".
Shoddy beyond belief.
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I am new to Win 10 and I simply hate the design of the "Schedule my Updates for Later" dialog/application/panel.
It would work well as a simple dialog with the nice time control and two buttons: "Schedule it", "Remind me later/Cancel".
Instead they have a slider thingy and instructions on the page that you actually have to read to understand how to use what could have been a simple popup dialog.
The old Microsoft used to be CUA compliant everywhere. Now they are trying to make Win10 look like a phone UI.
Bring back CUA!
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Probably designed by a cousin of the guy who designed the hospital laboratory information system screens that now require lots of page flips to do routine work because the others were "too busy" ... skilled knowledge workers like busy screens, naive ones not so much.
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