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The second half was way better than the first half.
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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I have certainly come to had Windows 8. I am using windows 8.1 and what I like is what is like Windows 7. Just not the right OS for doing multiple things at once. I have always felt that Microsoft has failed because they refuse to create and truly effective UI group, and Windows 8 is another example. Hard to believe that the shortcomings of Windows 8 for laptop and desktop use would not be absolutely obvious. Would think it would also be poor for anyone one with a large pad since it would have enough screen real estate to be able to work with multiple applications at once. In the mean time see so many cases where Microsoft could have done better at increasing the capabilities of the programming environment. Windows does not work well with either Visual Studio managed code applications or the Web, and now there is no supported environment for creating desktop applications, now that WPF is basically unsupported. Microsoft senior management has been so stupid.
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I guess I must be brain dead. I haven't found "the shortcomings of Windows 8 for laptop and desktop use".
I use Windows 8.1 on at least 2 large tablets, as well as my normal desktop PC. My development environment (VS) runs fine and all of the applications I write are for desktop use. I typically have 5 or 6 applications open at the same time. The stuff I develop on my Win7 machines run just fine on Win8 and 8.1 and vice versa.
Other than selecting the Windows button instead of the "Start" menu, I haven't seen much real difference.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E.
Comport Computing
Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Walt Fair, Jr. wrote: I guess I must be brain dead. I haven't found "the shortcomings of Windows 8 for laptop and desktop use".
Other than selecting the Windows button instead of the "Start" menu, I haven't seen much real difference.
Me too. I can't understand what the complaining is all about. Yes it is a different interface and you need to do things a little differently, get over it.
We do not work on Windows 3.11 anymore. The world has moved on.
Walt Fair, Jr. wrote: I use Windows 8.1 on at least 2 large tablets, as well as my normal desktop PC. My development environment (VS) runs fine and all of the applications I write are for desktop use. I typically have 5 or 6 applications open at the same time. The stuff I develop on my Win7 machines run just fine on Win8 and 8.1 and vice versa.
For me it is a laptop (Win8) and a desktop (Win8.1) and they both work fine.
I will admit it took me about a week to get used to the new interface when Windows 8 first came out, but after that I didn't find that it impeded my work in any way.
I took the view that this was the new environment and I needed to learn it to be able to use it. I needed to adapt if was going to be productive so I took the time to learn it rather than just complain that it was different then the Windows 7 environment with which I was used to working.
At first I kept using the usual desktop applications but lately I have grown used to the metro (I know I am not supposed to call it that) style applications and have been changing my preference to them where a good modern application exists to replace the old desktop application I had been using.
The ship is leaving the dock and you are either on it or you are left behind.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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I've used W8 for more than a year on my non-touch-based Ultrabook, and find it a pain to use. The OP is right Yes it's only small things, and yes you get used to it.
But no, I still don't like it, and there's so many small things that they add up to quite a heap of annoyance!
To make a point: I never missed the Start Menu, which so many people point out to be one of the bigger issues. There are much more annoying changes that blatantly ignore the needs of a typical desktop user:
1. Lack of discoverability
1.1 Main functionality missing
I don't mind if they 'moved my cheese'. But I do mind that W8 keeps hiding lots of functionality and settings without good reason: why do I need to move around the mouse pointer all over the screen just to see the buttons that provide the main functionality? I have a full HD screen on my Ultrabook, but there's no way to make the main function buttons always visible? WTF?
1.2 Inane Settings Dialogs
I've desperately tried to figure out how to properly set up my Ultrabooks energy settings so I can properly use it while commuting. To date, I've found no less than 4 (Four!) different dialogs that contain relevant settings with some available across two or more dialogs but some only in one place - so I really need to know about all four just to set up everything properly. I've found that it helps to have them all open at the same time, because changes in one place may affect settings in another! But it gets even worse: I've found Windows update to repeatedly reset my energy settings to the default! 
1.3 Inane 'flat' design
In many dialogs and even on the desktop (e. g. Charm  bars), simple lablels are indistinguishable from actionable GUI elements (I will not call them buttons, because they aren't buttons by any definition!). You have to mouse-over just to recognize whether or not there's a command hidden under! 
2. Inane Windows Update policies
As pointed out above in 1.2, there's reason to modify Update settings. However, those were regularly being reset together with the rest of my system settings  I've spent months to find the right settings to finally prevent Windows from breaking my system every month 
Even more inane - or I might say catastrophically stupid - was that automatic forced update after I got a battery low warning! Needless to say, the system powered down in the middle of an update, while I was commuting, with no power connector near. It took me more than an hour to fix that mess again!
3. Disruptive Touch UI elements
3. 1. (c)Harm Bar
When I work, I usually have windows maxed. For many of them, the easiest and fastest method to close them is clicking on the top right corner. Similarly, resizing the window is best done by pulling the bottom right corner. Guess what happens when I move the mouse in either corner!
3.2 Blocking notifications
Windows 8 loves blocking the entire screen with a modal dialog reminding me of all kind of things, even if those things do not make any sense at all at the time - such as requiring me to perform an update when I have neither an internet connection nor a power supply! This is annoying at the best of times, but outrageous while I'm actively controling an application (or game). It is entirely beyond me why Windows 8 doesn't give a damn about what I'm doing or what even makes sense to remind me about. Why does it keep throwing sticks between my legs at the least opportune of moments? Why can't it keep quiet and let me do my stuff, at my time, just like Windows 7 does?
3.3 Missing default applications
Why doesn't Windows 8 come with the desktop versions of viewers and players that were available in W7? Why does it force users to switch to a screen-hugging, touch based, ugly Metro App that hasn't half the features of the previous W7 desktop version? Yes I can install replacements, and I did. But I shouldn't freakin' have to! If I want a system that takes hours to configure to my needs, I'd rather switch to Linux!
That's just the things from the top of my head. Over the past year and two months I sure stumbled over more issues that never were an issue in W7. Or XP for that matter. From the PoV of desktop user, W8 is a total mess, and even after hours installing alternate apps and ClassicShell to make the pain go away, I still prefer W7!
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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And that just about sums up why I don't like Win8/8.1. I am a dedicated (old school if you like) WIMP user and that means I automatically hate touch screens. But Win8 isn't the worst. Have you tried typing on an Android phone?
And why is skeuomorphism suddenly a bad word? If something is supposed to work like a button it should look like a button and not a rectangular, pastel coloured nothing.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
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Where to start. Most of what your said is you perception, but I am not a W8/8.1 fanboy so if you don't like it by all means use W7.
W7 is the new XP.
Stefan_Lang wrote: 1. Lack of discoverability
Click the windows logo and start typing what you are looking for. After a few keystrokes a list of possible entries will appear. Select what you are looking for.
As for the charmed bar there is a setting so it won't pop out in most situations. Google is your friend.
Set windows update to inform you there are updates available but not install them. You then choose when and which updates are installed.
That addresses your major complaints. That is if you want to fix things. It might be more fun to bitch about it.
P.S. - I don't have a problem with windows update resetting my settings. Again Google is your friend to find out if others experience the same and how to get around the problem.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Believe me, I've spent many hours googling for solutions, but most of the suggested fixes I found didn't work, or were reset to default after the next update. As for the update itself, since it happens (only) once a month, that one was incredibly difficult and time consuming to find and fix. But I've confirmed in at least two occasions that it was the Windows Update that did reset a number of system settings including those concerning energy settings and the windows update itself!
The fact that I'm almost never connected to the web may have aggravated the issues I have experienced. But then, the system shouldn't expect me to be connected or being able to connect whenever or wherever I am!
In the meantime, yes, I've changed the settings to only download, but not apply Windows Update. I did disable the notifications, because it kept nagging me to download and install the W8.1 update. I do not want to update to 8.1 for my own reasons and those full screen blocking notifications were just another source of aggravation! (I believe the settings to prevent the charm bar popping up are therefore sadly not available to me)
When I look back, in the time I spent to make my system usable I'm sure I could have easily set up and customized some Linux Distro. I am well aware that takes its time, too. That's why I still use Windows. But next time I get a machine with the choice to either use a preinstalled W8 or spend some time wiping it to make room for Linux, I know what I'm gonna do!
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Stefan_Lang wrote: next time I get a machine with the choice to either use a preinstalled W8 or spend some time wiping it to make room for Linux, I know what I'm gonna do!
Coming soon, Stefan's adventures in LinuxLand! 
A preview.
Why does Linux have to work like that!
Why is it not more like Windows 7? 
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Thanks for your concern, but I've already been there. It can do anything Windows can do and more. The only thing that keeps me from using it is the effort of setting it up. W8 blew a big breach in that barrier...
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Looking forward to your rants experiences. 
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Discoverability means you don't know enough to start typing...
With CUA, you could browse through the start menu and app menus to see what was available.
I am just glad I had Windows 7 to train me so that I do know what to type.
Similar problem: The ribbons in office.
I understand that ribbons make it easier for non-power users, but vendors used to solve that problem with beginner vs. advanced menus.
With the ribbon, I have to use a dialog to dig through all of the additional commands (that used to be on menus) to find a few of the items that I then add to the "Quick" bar. If I had not used those items before, I may have never found them.
I never use a mouse with spreadsheets. I am just glad that many of the old context menus are still supported (at least in Office 2010)
Excel: Alt+E, I, D (Edit, fIll, Down).
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englebart wrote: Discoverability means you don't know enough to start typing...
With CUA, you could browse through the start menu and app menus to see what was available
you obviously don't know how to view all apps in W8.
It is easy to do. Google is your friend.
englebart wrote: Similar problem: The ribbons in office
That has nothing to do with W8, but I am beginning to see a pattern.
You need to go back to Windows 3.11 and the earliest edition of Office.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Stefan_Lang wrote: When I work, I usually have windows maxed. For many of them, the easiest and fastest method to close them is clicking on the top right corner. Similarly, resizing the window is best done by pulling the bottom right corner. Guess what happens when I move the mouse in either corner!
Right-click the taskbar and select Properties -> Navigation. De-select the "When I point to the top right corner show the charms" option. Use Win+C if you ever need to show the charms bar.
There isn't an option for the bottom-right corner, but I think that only applies if you auto-hide the taskbar. When the taskbar is showing, the hot corner is inside the taskbar, so moving the mouse to the bottom-right corner of the window doesn't have any effect.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Thanks.
Now that you mention it I remember reading about that in the W8.1 feature list. I have my own reasons not to upgrade to W8.1 though, so, sadly, this won't help me.
I think I read that the current version of ClassicShell also has similar features. Will have to check...
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Clifford Nelson wrote: Windows does not work well with either Visual Studio managed code applications or the Web
If "Windows doesn't work well with VS managed code apps", what does? What works better?
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Paragraphs would be nice.
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Clifford Nelson wrote: I have certainly come to had Windows 8.
I don't know what that means you have come to had Windows 8?
Clifford Nelson wrote: I am using windows 8.1 and what I like is what is like Windows 7.
Windows 7 is the new XP.
Clifford Nelson wrote: Just not the right OS for doing multiple things at once. I have always felt that Microsoft has failed because they refuse to create and truly effective UI group, and Windows 8 is another example ... Would think it would also be poor for anyone one with a large pad since it would have enough screen real estate to be able to work with multiple applications at once. In the mean time see so many cases where Microsoft could have done better at increasing the capabilities of the programming environment.
So you never learned to snap windows left and right to use two applications on the same screen. That works just like Windows 7!
With 2 screens that means I can work on 4 applications at once without having overly small displays. Of course Windows always allowed you to adjust the size of a window to be able to see more than one at a time, but being able to snap a window to either full screen of half screen makes it easier to do.
Clifford Nelson wrote: Windows does not work well with either Visual Studio managed code applications or the Web,
I don't agree with that. I am using Windows 8.1 to type this and have no problem. I also have managed code applications I wrote a while back running with no problem.
What problems you are having are related to your attitude about Windows 8 and not any shortcoming with the OS.
Clifford Nelson wrote: now there is no supported environment for creating desktop applications, now that WPF is basically unsupported.
You really should be thinking about moving on.
I switched to web development over desktop applications about 12 years ago because that is the way things are going and have not looked back since.
The only desktop applications I develop are (usually small) utility applications I need to execute on a schedule to update some background resource; database, XML manifest, etc. They usually run in the middle of the night at a time when they will not interfere with scheduled backups.
I use WPF for those but shrink the display area to a one by one pixel display because no one will be looking at it anyway.
I think you need to realize that the world is moving on and the way you did things in the past were done that way because that was the way things were done at the time.
These days there is a push for HTML5 and CSS so applications will execute on many different platforms. I think that is a good thing as opposed to building custom applications for each different platform individually.
Clifford Nelson wrote: Microsoft senior management has been so stupid.
Yes they should have frozen Windows development at Windows 3.11. They could have saved a lot of money on development!
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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JimmyRopes wrote: I switched to web development over desktop applications about 12 years ago because that is the way things are going and have not looked back since.
Even if you are still developing desktop (like I am) Microsoft has only vindicated that form of development. Notice they still fully support it in VS2013. I write customized systems for desktop use. The desktop ain't going anywhere. You may have also noticed that in more recent versions of the thing they're driving the product to be more desktop-centric rather than less. I think even Microsoft has realized that they made a massive mistake trying to supress the desktop.
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I think that eventually all applications will use a browser as a presentation format.
Desktop applications are starting to have the look and feel of a legacy application.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Wasn't Java supposedly the answer to the question of how to write cross-platform applications?
While the idea of cross platform languages/frameworks is a good idea, until the manufacturers of all/most hardware create browser friendly enabled APIs I don't see the "any platform easy programming" idea taking shape in reality.
Plus letting a browser control hardware is in and of itself full of security risks.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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GuyThiebaut wrote: Wasn't Java supposedly the answer to the question of how to write cross-platform applications?
Right! 
GuyThiebaut wrote: While the idea of cross platform languages/frameworks is a good idea, until the manufacturers of all/most hardware create browser friendly enabled APIs I don't see the "any platform easy programming" idea taking shape in reality.
Have you heard about JavaScript?
GuyThiebaut wrote: While the idea of cross platform languages/frameworks is a good idea, until the manufacturers of all/most hardware create browser friendly enabled APIs I don't see the "any platform easy programming" idea taking shape in reality.
Have you heard about JavaScript?
GuyThiebaut wrote: Plus letting a browser control hardware is in and of itself full of security risks.
Only if the control is from a foreign web site. If the browser is deployed as a thin client on the machine it will be just a GUI for a locally running service. The operations running will depend on the service's authorization on the local machine.
I don't see anything wrong with that.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
modified 19-Jul-14 8:49am.
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JimmyRopes wrote: thin client on the machine it will be just a GUI for a locally running service
In which case wouldn't the service need to be written for a specific architecture?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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GuyThiebaut wrote: GuyThiebaut wrote:
Plus letting a browser control hardware is in and of itself full of security risks.
Only if the control is from a foreign web site. If the browser is deployed as a thin client on the machine it will be just a GUI for a locally running service. The operations running will depend on the service's authorization on the local machine.
GuyThiebaut wrote: JimmyRopes wrote: thin client on the machine it will be just a GUI for a locally running service
In which <layer>case wouldn't the service need to be written for a specific architecture?
Yes in that specific case it would be written for a specific architecture.
In a general case where you are not targeting a specific architecture, then the application can be used on any architecture, which is more the general case.
The point is that the browser can be used for the specific case or the general case. It would just be a presentation format.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Thin clients? That's a Novell idea.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
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