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As interesting as this discussion has been, it's almost quitting time here so I'm off to enjoy the weekend. Have a pleasant evening.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
Meus ratio ex fortis machina. Simplicitatis de formae ac munus. -Foothill, 2016
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You too!
I should correct a previous statement - I meant to say time is compressed/expanded in front/behind you not space. That's what they are talking about when they refer to "time dilation" in relativity.
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It's also important to note that for a given particle, ALL the parts of that equation are constants. A photon never changes the amount of energy it has - it gets absorbed and ceases to exist and then a new photon with more or less energy is emitted, but the energy lost in that transition is what adds or removes mass in the proportion identified in the e=mc^2 equation.
So, that equation has very little to do with our ability to move faster. M is mass in a restful frame of reference. It has nothing to do with your speed or energy in a moving frame of reference. All that equation is saying is that if you absorb e energy, something has to gain e/c^2 mass. Likewise, if something loses m mass, you have to emit mc^2 energy. It goes both ways and gets applied both ways. It isn't an interaction, it's the static state of a particle during it's lifetime from the perspective of rest mass / rest energy.
Adding kinetic energy to a particle to move it doesn't change it's parameters of e, m, or c from its frame of reference.
[EDIT: sorry fixed my equations had it all mixed up]
modified 10-Feb-17 12:59pm.
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Foothill wrote: It's just a personal belief but I don't think that time travel is possible.
I surely hope so. Imagine children of the future having to learn 25 alternative histories that all happened.
Foothill wrote: I don't know where this time travel tangent arose but, while it makes for some very interesting stories, isn't really possible in my eyes.
It comes from multiple places, including the idea that time-space warps around a black hole. Hollywood has a need for time-travel to be possible.
Foothill wrote: In the theory, everything that has energy has mass and I tend to think of C as a universal drag coefficient. By lowering the amount of drag, particles would, in theory, lose mass and could travel faster. Even light would travel faster.
..which might be also a better explanation than the hyperexpansion of the early universe. If the velocity (or drag, depending on your viewpoint) can vary, then there is no longer a need for a rapid expansion.
Foothill wrote: By lowering the amount of drag, particles would, in theory, lose mass and could travel faster.
Yeah, same sentence quoted twice, but just wondering; how much "particles" are there in a human that has no mass?
Foothill wrote: The Higgs Boson (i.e. the god particle) is still just a theory.
Yes, but I haven't come up with anything better yet 
Foothill wrote: I have this written down at home but I do not have the academic credentials to get anybody in the field of physics to listen. I just tell it to people who might be interested to hear. With so little in the way of resources, I wouldn't be able to prove a word of it in a lab. It doesn't help that I'm not really very good at any mathematics above college algebra which is why I stay clear of graphics programming and security algorithm design. Sorry if some of this is academic speech as I don't know of any other way to describe it.
Are you familiar with open source? If you can describe your ideas and distribute it (in whatever form), it will be built upon by others. You can fill up any current gaps using "fairy dust", as lots of theories are incomplete.
My math-skills are at the level when I left school; junior second level education. That did not stop me from doing graphics programming, and I learned that you can do a 3D effect in a 2D environment by varying colors according to a set pattern. It was a painter that explained how to do that, not a maths-professor.
Describe what you think happens, and let someone else worry about the actual implementation. And explain it like you would to your kid - that way your audience is a bit larger than those who want to ignore it. Imagine you spending 10 years on learning something and meeting a passing travelling salesman who goes "that's all wrong actually" - I can image that it strikes them as "unlikely". And I can also imagine them being wrong 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Yea, you have to be jovial while exploring lines of thought that run counter to established beliefs.
If you want proof that time travel is impossible, thank history. Do you think for a second that if time travel were possible somebody would have already traveled back in time and assassinated Hitler in the trenches of France during WWI? We're human and I am certain some American would have done it just to prove that it could be done. 
I also don't think that black holes exist or at least not in the way that we currently think that they do. The point is that we use math to describe the universe but it doesn't work in reverse. While Hawking is a brilliant mathematician, just because you can prove something exists on paper does not mean that it exists in reality. I find it far more probable that the phenomenon that we think are black holes are really just the dead cores of the very first stars. Since black holes where accepted in mainstream physics, some people have gone to great lengths to try and prove it and thereby preventing other avenues of thought. I see them as very large bodies of normal matter with large proportions of radioactive material. The radioactivity will keep them very hot for a long time, continuously spewing radiation into space but other then that they behave like any other celestial object. Until we get close enough to one to take real-time measurements, it is still an educated guess either way.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
Meus ratio ex fortis machina. Simplicitatis de formae ac munus. -Foothill, 2016
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Foothill wrote: We're human and I am certain some American would have done it just to prove that it could be done.
Who said Hitler is not the result of that time-travelling?
Foothill wrote: I also don't think that black holes exist or at least not in the way that we currently think that they do. The point is that we use math to describe the universe but it doesn't work in reverse. While Hawking is a brilliant mathematician, just because you can prove something exists on paper does not mean that it exists in reality. I find it far more probable that the phenomenon that we think are black holes are really just the dead cores of the very first stars.
The simpeler explanation is the more probably one. Doesn't sound as exciting though.
Foothill wrote: I see them as very large bodies of normal matter with large proportions of radioactive material. The radioactivity will keep them very hot for a long time, continuously spewing radiation into space but other then that they behave like any other celestial object. Until we get close enough to one to take real-time measurements, it is still an educated guess either way.
In that case, I'll rather go for the romantic view that there is an entire universe inside every black hole
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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OK, let me come at this from a more philosophical angle.
Which came first, energy or matter? AFAIK, current mainstream cosmology would have to say that energy came first, at least if you hold with the Big Bang Theory. You can convert energy to mass and vice-versa, but when you look closely enough matter is fundamentally a product of energy (think of what an atom truly is). So is the everyday material world even "real" then, if solid matter is merely an "illusion" created by tiny energy clusters sparsely distributed through vast quantities of empty space?
Well, it's as real as real gets, from the experiential viewpoint, because there's no "more real" world that you can visit. However, that doesn't mean that matter is the foundation of reality itself, it's just the foundation of our experience of reality. But what is it that experiences this reality?
There is one truly undeniable statement in philosophy, one statement that is more certainly true than anything else that can be said. It was famously stated by Descartes as "I think, therefore I am." In other words, the fact that I am able to contemplate being proves that, in fact, being is a thing and that I exist. Importantly, the only thing that we can be so certain that exists is consciousness. Consciousness is the only thing that experiences reality, and so in some sense reality is always defined in terms of consciousness (even for materialists, who have to deal with the sensory problem). You cannot, in good intellectual faith, ignore the question of consciousness if you seek an accurate understanding of reality.
[I'm going to beat on Daniel Dennett a bit here because his book Consciousness Explained has become like a bible for naive materialists, so I have to deal with him in order to argue my case, because a lot of people think that the title of this book wasn't a lie.]
But science ignores the question of consciousness all of the time, mainly because it's so hard. When scientists do consider it, many of them go with a tortured materialist explanation a la Daniel Dennett. But when they do so they have to wrestle with the problem of mind/body dualism (Idealism doesn't have this problem, but Dennett seems ignorant of that and considers an assault on mind/body dualism enough to dismiss all non-materialist views). More importantly, materialists have to explain how consciousness exists at all in a materialistic universe. The idea that consciousness is an emergent property of matter is mystical magical BS, the very thing that materialists work so hard to steer clear of. It reminds me of that Far Side cartoon where a scientist has written a long formula on a chalkboard with "and then a miracle happens" in the middle.
Dennett tries to side-step this with a hilariously convoluted theory of consciousness though evolutionary biology, never mind the fact that we can't see any evidence of consciousness or its evolution in biology at all: it's not in the fossil record or DNA or anywhere that we can examine it. Nevertheless, Dennett uses his imagination to come up with an evolutionary explanation in the absence of evidence, and then concludes this theory by arguing that consciousness is completely illusory and unreal, a mirage created by material biology, and therefore only the material universe is real and we can safely ignore consciousness because there's no such thing. This is his biggest philosophical mistake: it's equivalent to saying "I think, but I am not." That's about as logically wrong as wrong can be. You can say that consciousness isn't real, but the very act of doing so proves you wrong.
So where am I going with this? Well, it could be that the missing piece of the puzzle in physics is the one bit of the universe that physicists largely ignore: consciousness. Could it be that the material universe is a product of consciousness, rather than the other way around?
If you look closely at physics you find strange things that defy our common-sense view of the world, especially in quantum physics. But quantum physics is the bedrock of our understanding of the material world, isn't it? So if strange things like entanglement and the observer effect defy our ordinary understanding of reality, wouldn't it be right to say that quantum physics has the more accurate picture and that our ordinary understanding of the physical world is skewed and wrong in its assumptions?
This all makes sense if you view the material world as a product of consciousness. Now, I don't mean individual consciousness, this isn't about solipsism. If consciousness is the bedrock of reality then it exists in not just people, but is the actual fabric of the universe itself. If this is true, then we will never have an accurate picture of the universe until we understand consciousness.
But how in the world can science get at consciousness? The very difficulty of it is the main reason why scientists steer clear of this question. But if I'm right and consciousness creates the material universe (in real time), then there must be some intersection, some interaction between consciousness and the material world at a fundamental level. Where might we find this? I'm hopeful that as quantum physics digs deeper into the mystery of the fundamental nature of reality, it will actually find consciousness as a measurable entity that can be observed through its interaction with matter, much in the same way that we can detect dark matter by its effects even though we can't observe it directly.
So why is this important for technology and the future? If the material universe is a product of consciousness, then it might be possible to develop technologies based on an understanding of consciousness that can interact with the universe at the most fundamental level. This would be the ultimate in technology and would potentially allow us to do absolutely anything that doesn't truly violate the fundamental laws of the universe (there are obviously some pretty hard-and-fast rules to reality, otherwise it would fall apart when gravity changed its mind about how to work).
Tl;dr: The missing piece of the puzzle in physics may turn out to be consciousness, and if physics can crack that nut then all things possible through technology may become possible. Matter may not be able to move through space faster than the speed of light, but that's not the only way to get from point A to point B. In fact, consider the possibility of transferring consciousness faster than the speed of light, physics has no prohibition on that (yet)
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I've read up a little on the conscious angle. It's an interesting blend of physics an philosophy and I think I could attempt sum it up as "the universe exists the way I observe it because I am the one observing it that way."
The point that I am trying to make with this sub-thread is that there could be some fundamental flaw in our current perception of physics but time has turned theory into doctrine and it has become nearly impossible to change direction due to the 100+ years of momentum that has built up behind it.
To me, a lot more things make sense when you boil the entire universe down to three things: natural energy (the stuff that makes up particles), kinetic energy, and some still undefinable force that keeps the natural energy from existing everywhere simultaneously.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
Meus ratio ex fortis machina. Simplicitatis de formae ac munus. -Foothill, 2016
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If you haven't done so already, you should read The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn. It's about exactly what you're saying about science and resistance to new ideas.
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At what speed does gas escape a black hole?
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Yeah, there's definitely a "your momma" joke to be made in this thread.
Jeremy Falcon
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Any speed slower than light.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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According to Wikipedia: An event horizon is the points at which the gravitational pull becomes so great as to make escape impossible, even for light. Light emitted from inside the event horizon can never reach the outside observer.
So if black holes are believed to emit things, how would that work at slower than light speeds? Unless of course the emission never escapes the event horizon and it all happens within that shell.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote: According to Wikipedia: An event horizon is the points at which the gravitational pull becomes so great as to make escape impossible, even for light. Light emitted from inside the event horizon can never reach the outside observer.
So if black holes are believed to emit things, how would that work at slower than light speeds? Unless of course the emission never escapes the event horizon and it all happens within that shell.
If nothing can escape a black hole, why do they still emit x-rays?[^]
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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So, technically, nothing actually leaves a black hole.
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Yup.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Ether (cosmic, not medical) was once known as fact of the base material of the universe.
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That's the same argument as the flat earth.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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I think you are missing the point.
There are particles that travel faster than light.
I believe we will be able to develop a warp drive. Where we either travel using another dimension, or we effectively fold space.
It reminds me of a sci fi story where Battlestar Galactica Meet Star Trek. They were discussing how fast they travel. ST guys were "Oh, we top out at Warp 9". The BSG guys are like "No way. Faster than light? We can only do X speed". And ST laughs... Then they realize how far they traveled...
And BSG asks "Oh, you are measuring your speed OUTSIDE of the warp field". Turns out BSG travels much faster. LOL
The point being is that our limitations are based on our understanding. As programmers, we do this stuff all the time. Add a level of indirection or abstraction to get what we need.
There was a show with Dynamic Window Tinting in the 1980s. My friends and I marveled and realized it was IMPOSSIBLE to tint glass on the fly, and let it untint. USING LCD crystals between the glass, it is available and has been for a while.
THAT is when I learned. Guessing it is not possible is never a good guess.
We are 3-D printing skin graphs, and soon ORGANS. We have amputees that can run faster than able bodied humans.
We will eventually travel faster than light. At least relative to our current geometry.
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Kirk 10389821 wrote: There are particles that travel faster than light.
Last time I checked, there was no single particle universe faster than light.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: I believe we will be able to develop a warp drive. Where we either travel using another dimension, or we effectively fold space.
That is correct; you are believing, which belongs to the realm of religion.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: We will eventually travel faster than light.
Nothing that mass has will.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: We have amputees that can run faster than able bodied humans.
Yes, but that does not mean that we will land on the sun, simply because "we have invented a lot". There are limits to what we can do, also in the future.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Arthur C. Clarke's Law:
"When a distinguished, but elderly, scientist says that something is possible, he is almost certainly correct. When, however, he says that something is impossible, he is almost certainly mistaken."
Clarke goes on to define "elderly": "In mathematics, physics, and chemistry, it means someone over 30. In the biological sciences, senile decay is sometimes postponed until the 40s."
At present, there seems no economical way to travel faster than light (creating a wormhole with an energy budget greater than that of a star doesn't count). However, we already know that General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are incomplete; it could be that whatever unifies them will re-open the possibility for FTL.
Even if the theory is advanced in the next few decades, I doubt that the hardware will be built fast enough for old farts like us to use.   
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack.
--Winston Churchill
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Phase velocity can exceed the speed of light - it may be exploitable, but for sending information and not any physical objects.
It all comes down to the relativistic mass of any object with mass. As it approaches the speed of light its mass approached infinity - so acceleration becomes impossible. An interesting caveat to that could be that as anything with any mass approaches c, they all approach the same mass. Which causes all sorts of conflicts, logically - and one might as well accelerate an entire planet as accelerate a grain of sand as they'll take the same effort in the end.
Special relativity does bend the brain, a bit.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Phase velocity can exceed the speed of light
True, but it can't be used to transfer information.
Many other things can also "travel" faster than light; for example, a laser dot shined onto the moon will, if the laser is moved at more than ~43 degrees of arc per second, "appear" to move faster than light. However, this dot cannot be used to transfer information.
W∴ Balboos wrote: It all comes down to the relativistic mass of any object with mass.
I am well aware that Special Relativity does not allow travel at faster than the Speed of Light. I was speculating on the possibility that a marriage of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics would allow for FTL travel.
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack.
--Winston Churchill
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Not sending information via phase velocity at greater than c: I had that explained to me ca. 30 years ago. I had suggested a physical device, essentially a giant scissor, which could open and close and non-relativistic velocities with respect to it's physical form, but the point at which the two parts of the scissor meet (a phase) moves faster than the scissor if the scissor is long enough.
So - make the scissor long enough so that the intersection exceeds c whilst no actual parts do - but the signal is sent from end-to-end by observing the motion of the tips of the scissor.
The physicist said what would happen is that the scissor would actually bend (relativisticly) to prevent the signal from exceeding c. This would, I suggest, connect with your wording "appear" to exceed see with your laser-spot-to-the-moon concept.
But wait! Stuff does exceed c under certain circumstance: if moving at c to begin with, a photon entering a new medium with a higher index of refraction will, momentarily, exceed see. This is observed as the bluish glow observed in the cooling water around a nuclear reactor (Cherenkov radiation). So - their is ever so small a chink in the armor of no-way, albeit admittedly it wouldn't help out much if traveling in a vacuum.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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