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Marc Clifton wrote: software should not be designed or written by programmers.
Ya, we should leave it up to Project Managers. 
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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[edit] Oh, and I completed the survey [/edit]
Short answer, I avoid all package managers.
I don't mind dependencies, but I want them locked down in the configuration that they initially work in, I don't want something auto-updating because there's a newer version out there, and I want to be in total control of what/when I update.
And when it comes to open source dependencies, I ensure that I can build the damn source code, which more often than not fails and requires tinkering.
And avoiding package managers sometimes involves creating a stub project, using a package manager, and then extracting just the DLL's that I need.
For example, installing the TFS client shyte adds some 30 references to your project. All sorts of cruft. And guess what, I only need 5 of them.
Package managers: 
Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees
Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
modified 5-May-17 12:21pm.
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Quote: And avoiding package managers sometimes involves creating a stub project, using a package manager, and then extracting just the DLL's that I need.
Interesting approach that I may want to borrow in the future. 
One possible exception: How do you deal with packages (like Costura.Fody) that drill into your project and embed themselves so deeply that that they become impossible to extricate later. I always keep a version of the project sans Costura, in case I need to dump it. But it is useful if you have a multi-project solution and you want to integrate the main executable and all required DLLs into a single exe file.
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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Cornelius Henning wrote: How do you deal with packages (like Costura.Fody)
I remember you were looking for something like that. Honestly, I've never used something so, um, invasive. 
Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees
Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Marc Clifton wrote: I don't mind dependencies, but I want them locked down in the configuration that they initially work in, I don't want something auto-updating because there's a newer version out there, and I want to be in total control of what/when I update.
I agree with you on that (I commit source code of dependencies in with the code of my C++ apps where I have no packet manager) - which is why I favour Paket for .NET dependencies - it understands that you might want to lock versions of packages.... Similarly, Rust (which I dabble with now and again) has a package manager, Cargo, with the same concept.
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
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Examining your posting history, it seems you post when you need us to supply you with information about how programmers do something or other.
Sounds like research for business or other somewhat commercial purposes.
Since you need CP users as a sample - should not your organization perhaps donate to support CP?
And, of course, there's always Q&A !
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: donate to support CP?
C'mon, this isn't Wikipedia. Code Project is a for-profit enterprise. That's like saying, let's donate to Sears because they are losing business to online retailers.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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I was actually going to ask that the money be sent to me but thought my chances to be upvoted would be better if I seemed loyal and selfless.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Downloading updates from the internet in the installer breaks things.
Globally installed dependencies break things.
Package managers break things.
Updating breaks things.
Globally installed dependencies of which only one version can exist at the time are especially evil and should be crusaded against, DEUS VULT.
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I was just viewing the wikipedia app in the Google Play store:
wikipedia app[^]
The info about the app says...
This app has access to:
Identity
find accounts on the device
add or remove accounts 
Contacts
find accounts on the device
Location
precise location (GPS and network-based)
Photos/Media/Files
read the contents of your USB storage
modify or delete the contents of your USB storage 
Storage
read the contents of your USB storage
modify or delete the contents of your USB storage 
Wi-Fi connection information
view Wi-Fi connections
Other
view network connections
create accounts and set passwords
full network access
run at startup
control vibration
I develop Android apps and have written a few articles here at CP about it.
However, these rights seem confusing, alarming, intrusive and even suspicious to me.
This is not because wikipedia devs have done something wrong.
It's the nature of the Permissions Beast
The required permissions to do stuff seem so intrusive that as a user you either:
## Trust it 100%
## Distrust it 100%
I think it is just confusing and :
It _Seems_ Like There Could Be A Better Way!?!
Might be interesting if Android allowed you to "warn when app uses [named] perm".
Then you could at least know what it was doing or something.
But most users wouldn't do that anyways.
Just TRUST IT ALL!
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Quote: Just TRUST IT ALL!
What a scary thought! 
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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Cornelius Henning wrote: What a scary thought!
It's really the expectation of modern technology though.
An additionally, possibly odd thing, is that even though the up-and-coming generation is "so technologically savvy" they are far more likely to just say, "TRUST IT ALL!"
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raddevus wrote:
Might be interesting if Android allowed you to "warn when app uses [named] perm".
I think Android introduced runtime permission checks since API level 23 (or 24).
Personally I go for Distrust 100%
When I see such a required permissions list I try to figure out what I'd use those permissions for.
For example, maybe I can understand that Wikipedia needs my identity info (maybe to sign in automatically using one of my accounts if supported) and WiFi / connection info (to get connectivity status).
But Contacts, location, media? Nope, I usually cancel install.
"It was when I found out I could make mistakes that I knew I was on to something."
-Ornette Coleman
"Philosophy is a study that lets us be unhappy more intelligently."
-Anon.
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parths wrote: Nope, I usually cancel install.
I know. That's exactly how I generally feel too.
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You can use application manager to deny the permissions after installing, BUT before opening.
The apps will normally prompt you to enable the permission when you try to do something that requires it.
I start with deny everything until I see what causes a prompt.
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If your app opts into the finer grained permissions in newer versions of android the user can approve/deny permissions individually. (The catch is that as a dev you have to handle eg not being able to access the GPS because the user has given you a big fat NOPE.)
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Dan Neely wrote: the user can approve/deny permissions individually.
That's a great point.
I had to handle that situation in my recent app/article ( Android Phone Reads SMS (Txt) Messages To You[^] ) to support Marshmallow and beyond.
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If they could dress in clothes, would clouds wear thunderwear?
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Are you cirrus? 
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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He must be in a fog - he seems to have completely mist the point.
/ravi
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Once you get to OG's stratus - does it really matter?
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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True. I guess he deserves his morning glory.
/ravi
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