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Great description, we do use MOSS, too.
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sperrgebiet wrote: Every IT-Pro should think about other software giants like Computer Associates, IBM or HP (and this are just the 3 which came in my mind first). They all have products which are much more buggy and anything from Microsoft.
Like Lotus Notes you mean ?? Sharepoint is OK, I don't find anything wrong with it.
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In my opinion the biggest problem with Notes is that IBM never say's something clear about the future of the product. The last presentation i say was about the Notes-Future in Java and OpenSource. It's good to know that the future of Sharepoint is saved (at least for the next version).
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My company unfortunately uses it, honestly I have never seen such a train-wreck of a product, fortunately I've not had to spend waste my time on it yet.
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RavensCry wrote: fortunately I've not had to spend waste my time on it yet.
Ok, just to be fair here... If you haven't used it then how do you know it sucks?
And no, I didn't vote you down.
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Well firstly as an end user (of which I am) it's lousy, although I will concede that maybe its the way its been implemented, secondly I have to sit in amongst the devs working with it and unlike studio which has the occasional blasphemy thrown at it, it's fairly constant all day long.
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I've been using Microsoft, Unix and Linux for years. Everytime I INVEST time and energy into a Microsoft Product, they discontinue it just as I'm mastering it. Microsoft has repeatedly "discontinued" every technology I've really liked and used and made awesome stuff with.
I'm not letting that happen again. Code I wrote 10 years ago on Unix still runs on Unix and Linux today. Code I wrote two years ago is already "outdated" in Microsoft Circles...
.Net, Sharepoint MSCRM, Vista (already outdated LOL) ... No thank you, I'm trying harder than ever before to migrate all my systems off windows entirely - and this goes for customers' systems too. the cool thing is more and more clients are in the same mindset - even long time window's shops - switching up. It's a shame too really, I mean Microsoft's ODBC, VB6, .Net v1 all were decent... now there are so many versions of .net, silverlight on top of that, well.. their technology focus has gone from making improvements to what new thing can get we get suckers to invest in... The Microsoft ODBC technologies that have worked for years don't even work anymore on the new systems... you need to .Net everything and write ALL NEW code... it's extremely lame... that's why its so hard to master any technology... Microsoft has created a "technology fad" approach to innovation... result: It's not innovative.
So.. Sharepoint? Share this!
See ya.
--Jason
Know way to many languages... master of none!
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I'm signing this with my blood...
I am designing all my development so that it is Microsoft-agnostic. And the more years I am doing that, the more I am happy with that decision. And I am planning to slowly move out from ANY MS technology.
Because exactly as Jason said. Any technology from Microsoft that was really funny to use was discontinued somehow or replaced by something else as MS changed their focus.
Use carefully what Microsoft gives you and think twice... no, ten-times, before you adopt a technology from them.
Happy coding.
--Tomas
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tvavrda wrote: Use carefully what Microsoft gives you and think twice... no, ten-times, before you adopt a technology from them.
No doubt about that dude , 100 % AGREED !
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I understand your concern.. but there is reason.. MS provide your backward compatibility too...
The organization i am working for have software written in VB 4 to Dot 2.0. still everything is working fine.
"Opinions are neither right nor wrong. I cannot change your opinion. I can, however, change what influences your opinion." - David Crow Never mind - my own stupidity is the source of every "problem" - Mixture
cheers,
Alok Gupta
VC Forum Q&A :- I/ IV
Support CRY- Child Relief and You
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Yes, and you have chosen a good technology. But for example there was a thing called "Information Bridge Framework" and many other tools/technologies comming out from Microsoft which were greatly marketed and did not go over version 1.5 at the end.
And as for the compatibility, we have developed an application in .NET 1.1 and because of bugs in that framework we had to work-around, the application was not able to run under .NET 2.0.
I don't say you should not take anything from Microsoft, all other providers have problems, too. It's just that especially Microsoft is very good in releasing too much software and suddenly being able to stop support. Just because of business/marketing reasons.
Another example I know is Intersystems (product Caché) which I was told is fully supporting every single historical version they have released. I suppose you must pay for this, but it is the nature of the company. Microsoft's nature is to release, realize how it does not fit and dispose the product. VB6 was also disposed even though it was really good product for what it was and with a large consumer base.
So for me, the problem is not the backwards compatibility what is the problem, but the forsight and architecture. MS is so big that every product goes its own way. There is no single person guiding the product base. So sometimes you find products that compete. And of course one of them will be canceled. That's why you have to take care on what technology you take from MS - you never know what they will take back.
--Tomas
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In my opinion, discontinuing products is not a Microsoft problem. It is a general problem with new technology.
VB6 is discontinued, but in my opinion for a good reason. Like Cobol. You can still use it for many years if you want, but nothing new will come.
The problem I see is with new technology and, in my opinion, Version 1 of something.
To be honest, I would really like NOT to have ArrayList, StringList or any of the non-generic collections, but Microsoft does a good job at keeping compatibility with old versions of the software, when you use it properly (using undocumented methods and workarounds are not in this case).
But, it is certain that new technology will have bugs and probably breaking changes. That's why I already use some LINQ in my projects, but when creating my own LINQ providers I avoid to do complex jobs, I really think this will change in the near future.
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JasonPSage wrote: I'm not letting that happen again. Code I wrote 10 years ago on Unix still runs on Unix and Linux today. Code I wrote two years ago is already "outdated" in Microsoft Circles...
OMG what kind of systems do you code? lol i dont even remember what i was coding 10 years ago i guess it was basic or C, i think you are a frustrated out of date dude who could not catch up to latest technology
JasonPSage wrote: now there are so many versions of .net, silverlight on top of that, well.. their technology focus has gone from making improvements to what new thing can get we get suckers to invest in...
OMG you want that a .NET version that stills for 10 years? so you can catch up with new features? in 8 years there has only been 3 mayor versions and 2 minor versions 1.1 and 3.5 and well counting SPs maybe other 2 that dindt added too much stuff, and well java and others have got dozens o mayor and overall minor versions! 6.1.1 6.1.2.... etc, i think .NET evolution has been way of more consistent than any other technology and have really made improvements from one version to another, take for example .NET 2.0's windows forms to 3.0's WPF this has revolution the way UI are built and no one who has invested a little time on it can say it didnt
JasonPSage wrote: you need to .Net everything and write ALL NEW code... it's extremely lame... that's why its so hard to master any technology
Well coming from someone who only code once anything... i think it's worth to rewrite code, what you did 10 years ago my friend it's OBSOLETE really and new Microsoft technologies make it easier, faster and better to code today's industry requirements, i cannot imagine how long time could it take writing code with 10 years ago technology to do what you can do now in very short time with new technology
And yes i'm updating every day and i dont have any problems with new technology thats because im specialized, im focused, im a microsoft technology specialist, and believe me its a lot more worth specializing than taking a bit of every technology in your portfolio like you people do i bet
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chaosgeorge wrote: OMG you want that a .NET version that stills for 10 years?
He didn't say that. He said he wants an app he writes to work that long. Maybe you can try and do better than just insulting him this time around.
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Im not insulting him is just pointing that he looks he's against new Microsoft technology and i think we should adapt to it, by the way a .net 1.1 app run on vista now and in windows 7 with xp virtualization, and anyway in any os you can run your .net 1.0 app if not natively with virtualization, however i dont thnink apps that are that old are very productive these days
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chaosgeorge wrote: Im not insulting him
I'm willing to bet if you reread your post you'll find plenty of items that can easily be deemed a tad bit less than cordial.
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chaosgeorge wrote: he looks he's against new Microsoft technology and i think we should adapt to it
Ok, there lies our point of discussion: We disagree.
chaosgeorge wrote: by the way a .net 1.1 app run on vista now and in windows 7 with xp virtualization
Translation: Using Microsoft code today natively on their OS means that you can bet you will only be able to still use the application in a virtual machine in years to come when microsoft changes the rules again, making your already slow .Net software run even more slowly in a virtual machine.
chaosgeorge wrote: i dont thnink apps that are that old are very productive these days
Well, applications written today "Microsoft's" way when compared to "old skool apps" that do EXACTLY the same thing are 10 times larger and run slower - fact. Sloppy developers say "The machines are getting faster so it doesn't matter".... I argue that there is no benefit in speeding up hardware when the software developers do all they can to make new software run as slow as the old software did on on old hardware.
Here some real issues at hand for us developers that effect us all - personalities aside:
Issue 1: Rapid Application Development trades efficient run time for faster development cycles - PERIOD.
Issue 2: Investing in proprietary software from a company with a history of antiquating and abandoning their own creations only years after adoption is definately debatable.
Note: I've been a Microsoft Certified Consultant for years for more than one company - so I'm not out dated - in fact my feelings about these matters are from knowing the code inside and out. I know how many versions of .Net are out there as well as what is involved coding to them, using them, distributing them etc. What I am is tired of explaining to customers who spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on a particular technology and finally getting their business truly "working" just to find out that all that code they wrote is on the Microsoft chopping block, and by the way... because you chose microsoft, all the microsoft compatible software you paid for... like Front Range Goldmine... Sales Logix and much more ... (games perhaps at home, video cards, etc) all need to be scraped because the new operating systems don't support it.
So... your opinion is "just get with the times".... where I'm moved by the fact that many of my own customers feel ripped off... because of the Microsoft "goo" they are stuck with - much of it I was their saying "yeah its good stuff".... and it was... Microsoft themselves have turned it into the past tense.
This is where I'm coming from.
Know way too many languages... master of none!
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Have you used an hyper visor for virtualization? tell me if that's slow.
Well i think software is made to evolve to break RULES to change RULES and get them better that's the only way software technology is evolving and yes maybe SOME things goes just to broke, but that's the culture we have been lived for years: "if i have a software i want it to live forever and ever" even if you know it's costing thousands to mantain firstly because there are less and less people who is willing to mantain that kind of systems (and i count as one) and secondly because it uses old standards that no one longer uses, i think the culture of people who adopts software must change and say ok i have a software this year but i want in two years to be reingeenered or evolved so i can have more stable, better quality, better ROI software and overall MORE USEFUL software, and guess what today tools let that happen more and more softly dont tell me it's the same programming something in old school MFC c++ than programming it with today .NET or java technology for example, and of course having to mantain old software to be again mantained with old technology will cost more than if they had migrated before, dont you think? i think early adoption of new technology at the end costs a lot less than adopting it later.
JasonPSage wrote: What I am is tired of explaining to customers who spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on a particular technology and finally getting their business truly "working" just to find out that all that code they wrote is on the Microsoft chopping block, and by the way... because you chose microsoft, all the microsoft compatible software you paid for... like Front Range Goldmine... Sales Logix and much more ... (games perhaps at home, video cards, etc) all need to be scraped because the new operating systems don't support it.
Ok you can't stop technology just because no one wants to break their apps, thats for hardware thats for microsoft and that's for all the other people investing in technology, and well OSes just have to adapt to change too, and that's in every OS my friend. And finally spending hundreds of thousand of dollars on a particular technology is just bad planning, you first need to test new technology before adopting it, and if you have adopted it you must have a plan to use it not just let it cook for you, and finally a plan to migrate it when the time comes, a well informed and organized organization won't lose with technology, they will win, and that happens with Microsoft adopters, Linux adopters, etc., and well Microsoft keeps going and going investing in technology not because of the people who loses with "choped" technology but because of the people who wins with their technology that are the most these days.
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chaosgeorge wrote: Have you used an hyper visor for virtualization? tell me if that's slow.
Virtualization by definition is slow, but with fast enough hardware is great as you can "back up" entire OS's to a disk file - and restore them. As for your HyperV, run that same OS directly on the hardware: its faster - naturally. Forcing people to use virtualization is saying by the way, that new hardware you have won't be allowed to run your old app at full speed, as we only support it in a virtual machine. You can run anything you want if you throw enough hardware at it. Not everyone is willing to turn over all their server hardware everytime an OS is released. Staying current is one thing, providing there is enough income and ROI to fund it.
chaosgeorge wrote: Well i think software is made to evolve to break RULES to change RULES
Well, I've been innovatively coding for years and I couldn't agree more. That is not where our opinions stray. My problem is when companies like Microsoft literally force thier customers to abandon "what works" and antiquating what they have. If you are making new software, you don't have to break old stuff.
If you want to write new awesome things - go do it - just don't force feed it to everyone who might not want your new technology. New technology: Cool. People adopting new technology because they like it: Cool. Force feeding people new technology and acting like its the new salvation for mankind: Microsoft.
No one is trying to stop technology here or even suggesting it. Think of it this way: Architecture...like buildings and stuff. New technology brings us new materials to build with, new processes, faster means to create etc. THANKFULLY every time a new architect teams up with new material engineers and planning teams they do not destroy every building on the planet. That's what I'm saying Microsoft has been doing lately, and that is what I'm saying is ridiculous.
Know way too many languages... master of none!
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JasonPSage wrote: Force feeding people new technology and acting like its the new salvation for mankind: Microsoft.
he lol well i don't think microsoft is acting like that, the times Microsoft had encapsulated everything are over and the times that the systems could not interconnect are over too and Microsoft is investing also on these technologies like everyone, and the future is that OSes will be less and less relevent as time goes by, and an enterprise who still thinks as the OS or any software as its one of the most importants values with no planning for the future is in danger
I think any good engineer could take the best of everything and integrate it as part of the whole, at the end also old buildings that didn't evolved are fully destroyed to build new ones anyway i think people are a lot more free to do as we like than before and no one forces anything
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chaosgeorge wrote: OMG what kind of systems do you code? lol i dont even remember what i was coding 10 years ago i guess it was basic or C, i think you are a frustrated out of date dude who could not catch up to latest technology
LOL, well you're right about one thing: I'm definately frustrated. I'm not outdated - in fact, if I was I wouldn't have the "tag line" I do: "Know way too many languages and master of none!"
The kind of systems I TRY to write are ones that stick around. Ten years ago I wrote a warehouse management system for one of the largest natural food food distributors in the United States on a HP-UX when a vendor specializing in such systems failed after receiving 3 million bucks. I wrote it in a month, reporting projects followed for another month or so to get everything needed for the Day to Day needs of people on the warehouse floor and for management.
You know what? They are still using that same system: works like Walmart's with the hand held scanners, the forklift scanners and wrist units from Symbol (for scanning bar codes of pickslots and products etc). It has matured over the years but its still the same system. that's the kind of systems I was writing 10 years ago, and I haven't stopped coding or staying current because I'm addicted to this stuff! I've been programming for 27 years and that my friend gives me a pretty good point of view over what technology is, does and what is innovative and what isn't.
In all fairness, Sharepoint and Microsoft CRM are decent packages; Server2008 is pretty decent as well. I particularly loved VB6 because the "package" was complete and it made true binaries unlike .Net (regardless of generation). Just In Time compilers do not protect intellectual property of developers unless they go through obfuscation steps to "conceal" their code.
Now for innovations - Microsoft's run of "Basic", Open Database Connectivity (ODBC), Various operating system roll outs prior to Vista and excluding Millenium, Outlook, Excel and Access and the Visual Basic for Applications tools, Microsoft Sidewider Joystick and various "Mice" ..well - awesome.
As for me being outdated, I disagree. New Technology is great however all to often the clammouring of new technology is just marketing folks putting proverbial lipstick on a pig and calling it new. I've been around long enough to know that today's "New" technology rarely is innovative. "Things" labeled as new technology often promote other people owning/managing your data (security risk), use more bandwidth than necessary (xml/soap as the interoperabilty cure all) and often it changes "processes" people know just enough to force them into learning how to do the same things thhey already do, differently which slows down productivity.
Here's an example of the kind of thing that frustrates me to no end: For as long as I can remember, in Microsoft products, the key combination CNTL-F pulls up a "Find" window where you can search for text and CNTL-H would call up a "Search-N-Replace" window: Wonderful. Now, another wonderful keypress I know and use without even needing to think about it, until recently, was using the F3 Key to "Find Next" instance of something I was searching for. This F3 key has been in multiple versions of Word, Excel, Access, Outlook, Powerpoint and many Microsoft programming environment IDE (Integrated Development Environment). This F3 "Find Next" keypress has been so well received that it can be found in all kinds of software these days regardless of operating system! But guess what... Microsoft doesn't use it anymore. I fire up Microsoft Office 2007, and it doesn't work the same way which means I have to work differently to do the same thing I've done for years without any appreciable benefit aside from inconveinence. Am I frustrated? Surely. Outdated? Just older and wiser.
I've programmed all kinds of systems including Microsoft CRM and Sharepoint and the API's are wordy, expensive from a bandwidth perspective, the interfaces are too "click happy" and users complain. You need people with serious experience in programming to beable to do anything more than add a custom field. You need to know a ton of technologies to understand how it all pieces together. Now I ask you friend, compared to Microsoft's "old" approach of having one script language that can talk to all it's products in the same manner... which is more intuitive? If this kind of observation and frustration is a sign I'm outdated, then so be it.
Know way to many languages... master of none!
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JasonPSage wrote: labeled as new technology often promote other people owning/managing your data (security risk), use more bandwidth than necessary (xml/soap as the interoperabilty cure all) and often it changes "processes" people know just enough to force them into learning how to do the same things thhey already do, differently which slows down productivity.
Well about this you're right and well thanks to SP1 of .net 3.5 now we can use Data Services aka RESTFUL data or Resource Oriented Architecture, if we focus on that, yes its different way of do database stuff than it was done before (WCF, SOAP/XML) sure it is an innovation, of course ROA is not new but incorporating it .net and integrate it with linq well thats what's worth labeling "innovation through technology" making it easier, more elegant and more stable than with traditional WCF,SOAP,etc so my point is: is not just about making the same things in different ways, it's about achieving the same goal in less time and with better quality that's different and worth to invest.
So I conclude with this: the "new" approach of Microsoft is making every new technology a FOUNDATION, extensible technology to adapt to your needs, it's no longer that what you learned from VB6 is useless in vnext or .NET, since .NET era what you learned in .NET 1.0 applies the most for version 2.0, 3.0, 3.5 etc, that's why the major technologies of .NET have the sufix Foundation, and that's the same approach with Sharepoint and other technologies and that's something no other company has achieved, learning what's new is just a matter of weeks if you dedicate just part of your time, regards
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Years ago my team and I put our truct in IBM and OS/2. We saw this Windows thing as a low quality FAD... then we moved our C++ development to cross platform tools and delivered for our OS/2 and our Windows customers - then all the cross-platform vendors either went out of business or decided to bleed us in licensing fees.
Then my company decided to go 100% COM/C++... in 2001!
I used to really hate Microsoft - all marketing, no quality! (this was from the DOS/Windows days). But IBM certainly was the wrong company to back.
Since then - Microsoft has done tons to improve productivity and quality. I can accomplish on my own what it would take a team of 4 or 5 people to produce in 1995. But, this comes at a price of technologyu shift. If you're in the old native C++ development mode - you're spednign way too much effort inventing the basics over and over.
Move on up to C# and ReSharper! Toss in some IoC - and lots of big I interfaces! Decouple that code and set yourself free!
Dale Thompson
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but it runs so slow...
Know way too many languages... master of none!
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Jason: I feel your pain. I've written lots of different things over the last 25 years and what used to take 500 bytes in assembly now takes 500k (not counting the 20MB framework you ALSO need). The assembly used to be elegant, tight, every byte on the stack accounted for and ran like lightning even on the most modest of machines. The new stuff? It's a crap shoot. You no longer REALLY know what's going on since you only wrote two lines of code and the framework magically does the rest behind the scenes.
But is that really so bad? What used to take days or weeks I can now do in hours -- And much of it is less error prone! The whole concept of super high level languages and wrappers around wrappers that wrap yet something else may not be efficient, but it no longer HAS to be be in most cases. Hardware has gotten so cheap that, as much as I like optimizing code, it's often cheaper to just buy a bigger box. Don't get me wrong: There's a plethora of clueless application developers (versus programmers!) out there that take this concept to the extreme and just slap something together with total disregard for performance.
I agree with many of your points:
- RAD trades efficiency for rapid development cycles. Absolutely! But that's the point, isn't it?
- MS does release technologies at a pace that's impossible to keep up with. Their "let's see if this one sticks" approach drives me nuts! But stick to their core technologies and it's actually pretty solid. I've seen more backward compatibility out of MS than out of most companies.
As for the product at hand: Sharepoint...
We use it. It's a love/hate relationship. From a developer's perspective I think it's a pain in the neck. From an end-user standpoint: They "just get it". Show me anything in the same price range that has such a consistent UI (think users used to Windows/Word/Outlook/Etc.) and a similar feature set and I might be tempted to switch. I sure haven't seen it, and it's not because I haven't looked.
Peter
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