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Asday wrote: Sometimes tools get in the way.
Not if you use them properly.
Asday wrote: You're the elitist here.
You have that ass-backward, I'm an anti-elitist. Presumably, you're one of the elitists using notepad to produce the next version of Word. Good luck with that.
Here's another analogy: if I'm working on a 50 year old car, then I'd expect my toolkit to be a little different than the one I use for a 3 year old car. I might be able to sue some of those old tools on the new car but that would probably not be the most efficient use when the manufacturer would have produced specialist tools for the job. (We're ignoring the fact that you can make your own tools; from experience I can tell you that is only effective in very few cases).
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Not if you use them properly.
Ever seen an old person try to work one of those new TV remotes? Sometimes you get used to the old way, and that's fine.
Presumably, you're one of the elitists using notepad to produce the next version of Word. Good luck with that.
Did notepad touch you when you were a kid? Why are you so aggressive?
Yet more clueless bullshit
Your analogy is stupid. C# is a decade and a half old. Python is two and a half decades. C is four. Some people use IDEs for C. Some people don't use IDEs for C#. It has nothing to do with the age of the "car"; it's about how the programmer works best.
You could take away my pushbike and hand me a quad bike and tell me it's better, but that doesn't mean I'll enjoy it more, or ride more skillfully.
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Asday wrote: Sometimes you get used to the old way, and that's fine.
I'm old but I adapt and change. My FIL is 87 and juts bought an Apple laptop. he loves it. Not all people of age are old.
Asday wrote: Did notepad touch you when you were a kid?
There was no Notepad when I was a kid. There were no pcs. There was only pong.
Asday wrote: Why are you so aggressive?
I didn't realize I was being aggressive; just straightforward.
Asday wrote: Your analogy is stupid.
Now who's being aggressive? Anyway, you clearly don't understand the analogy. I have not once don't use notepad or anything you want: my complaint was that the OP said he wouldn't use an IDE and I am saying I like to use an IDE. The same way I would use a laptop to help me diagnose the issue with a new car. On a 50 year old car the laptop could only be used to stop the car rolling.
Asday wrote: C# is a decade and a half old. Python is two and a half decades. C is four. Some people use IDEs for C. Some people don't use IDEs for C#. It has nothing to do with the age of the "car"; it's about how the programmer works best.
I never said it didn't work like that. You've plainly not really understood any of the sides here and are just barreling in.
Your example of c# is not good: that has always had an IDE. Yes, some people may choose to code with Notepad/ I just say Why? The IDE is a far richer environment. If you choose not to use it, your loss.
Asday wrote: You could take away my pushbike and hand me a quad bike and tell me it's better, but that doesn't mean I'll enjoy it more, or ride more skillfully.
No one wants to take anything from you: you have utterly misunderstood. perhaps you should go rip some code on your abacus.
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I'm old but I adapt and change.
You're missing a very very important part of my post.
and that's fine.
Your example of c# is not good: that has always had an IDE
So? You've always been able to code in a text editor. What's your point?
perhaps you should go rip some code on your abacus.
I have not once don't use notepad or anything you want:
Why are you so confused? I don't care what other people use. I don't code with two badgers and a spoon. The reason I'm talking to you is because you're trying to force the idea that using an IDE is straight up better than not doing so, and you're wrong. It depends on the programmer.
Yes, some people may choose to code with Notepad/ I just say Why? The IDE is a far richer environment. If you choose not to use it, your loss.
Yes, some people may choose to have a bacon sandwich, I just say "why"? Eating the whole pig is much more filling. If you choose not to eat a whole pig, it's your loss.
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Asday wrote: Why are you so confused? I don't care what other people use. I don't code with two badgers and a spoon. The reason I'm talking to you is because you're trying to force the idea that using an IDE is straight up better than not doing so, and you're wrong. It depends on the programmer.
Again, you're seeing things that are not there. perhaps you should have a rest since you're plainly struggling here. You need to re-read what I have said.
Let's try this: using notepad, for instance is like driving a mini, maybe even a mini cooper. They're great, Ive had one or two and they are marvelous little cars. A decent IDE? Like driving a Jag. It's still just a car but it has loads of useful little extras that you'd have to buy and install on your own for the mini.
I guess you won't get that either as you are so blinded by what you think has been said.
Asday wrote: Yes, some people may choose to have a bacon sandwich, I just say "why"? Eating the whole pig is much more filling. If you choose not to eat a whole pig, it's your loss
Yup, the jury is in, you are a twat.
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I want to chime in on this, because it got heated...
I use IDEs, and UltraEdit and Notepad++
But it is getting out of control. How many IDEs do I have to have on my machine?
After a FUBAR issue with multiple VS editions and multiple SQLExpress editions,
I had to move my development to MANY virtual machines.
Being that I consult, I use various tools, for different clients. I don't always get to
pick my tools.
And MSFT/VS makes it worse. I cannot just recompile my older stuff in the new IDE. The
source turns out to be IDE dependent!?! Upgrading it breaks other developers.
So, right now, I have 2 IntelliJ platforms, netBeans (2 Versions), Eclipse (5 versions, spread
across 3 VMs), 3 Versions of VS, each on its own VM. 3 Versions of Delphi. (And I refused to install the AccuBench COBOL, and use an RDP session for that)
Thank the heavens for VMs.
I love syntax highlighting, and some of the Refactoring tools. But keeping track of that across these environments really really SUCKS.
I see both sides of the argument here.
The problem I run into is "You want me to install ANOTHER development Environment".
OMG, my Path is over 2K Bytes long. I have issues where I had to create C:\pf86 as a hard link, to reduce my path size!
Most people I know that use VS have 2 versions installed, and often times 3 whenever a new version is out. Some have said they have as many as 6 and can't get rid of them, because they maintain VB6 code, etc. And MSFT just drops support in future editions... So you have to keep the old versions around to keep the code alive.
Yes, they are tools. But the complexity of managing them is getting out of hand, and I think that is what is expressed here. Over the years, I have lost the ability to rebuild much of the code I have written (I tossed my 10" tape reel 2 decades ago).
But what do you do when an old client calls you up for help with code you wrote in 1985?
(you kick yourself for not getting ANNUAL FEES, LOL)
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I didn't say that you should never use Notepad++ or whatever, only that the right tool for the job makes life easier. I have VS2005, 2008, 2010 and 2013 installed and use each one during the course e of the week, depending on what application I am building or supporting. it is no different to a mechanic having several different sizes of socket sets. You pick the appropriate one for the job at hand. If you choose to use UltraEdit for that task, good for you. Wouldn't be my choice - I was happy to get away form the command line and text editors for development - they seem sort of primitive compared to a decent IDE: I enjoy all the extras that the IDE gives me. All I said was that it is elitist and snobby to completely dismiss IDEs as some sort of guilty pleasure or tool that only poor developers would use.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: But what do you do when an old client calls you up for help with code you wrote in 1985?
Offer to rewrite it in widget++ for a massive fee, of course! 
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The first software I ever bought was a simple debugger for about 15$. It allowed you to set breakpoints, single step after reaching them and examine the processor's registers (tightly packed on a 64 x 64 pixel screen). After that, I ditched entering machine code directly in favor of a small assembler, simply because having to retype everything after a change in the middle of the code was a pain.
When I write code for my old computer today, I use a far more comfortble text editor and a acro assembler on the PC and test my code in an emulator. The old debugger still sees some action from time to time.
That's all you need to get some work done. Fancy IDEs or tools may be of great assistance, but something is terribly wrong if you can't live without them.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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CDP1802 wrote: something is terribly wrong if you can't live without them.
My point exactly. 
In my years doing C on OpenVMS, we used text editors and command-line compilers, and we liked it! But we (I) dreaded having to use the debugger, it was (is) practically unusable. Having the debugger in an IDE (Turbo Pascal for example) is a huge benefit when you need it. But most debugging tasks don't require a debugger at all. In many cases it's just one more crutch that some developers think they can't live without.
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I liked the OpenVMS debugger... Better than any of the alternatives for embedded systems debugging back in the day...
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
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I'm so happy to see that there are programmers out there that still want to use their brains instead of the fingers for "autocomplete" their code.
I use notepad++ for programing but most of all Gedit.
For those that think that could only do "basic" things, it does not matter to me that limited vision (cause they do not know what they are talking about), with those "basic tools" i can write, Java, PHP, Asp, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, etc... .
If you can not do a "visual debugging", that is, debugging only looking at the code and having in your mind values of variables / objects passing from method to method, you become what i call an "IDE user".
"Doing AJAX?, oh God, where is the magic 'drag and drop' thing that let me do that 'obscure' things that take bunch of unnecessary code and use lots of bandwidth for making get that a 'div' a value from server?"
There are plenty of articles out there about how software is going worst instead of better because of the waste of the amount of resources that we have now. "Freeing unused objects? no way, it is garbage's collector work, even if it is only one line of code". That's is an example of not knowing what you are doing.
Happy to see that there people that shares my thoughts, sad too see that other only want to hide behind a tool.
Finally, IDEs are ok if you want to use them, but if you do not know you can do things without them, it's a mistake that sooner or later you will pay for.
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Kudos to you. I definitely feel that IDE's limits ones ability to use your brain and try to remember stuff. You start relying to much on 'ctrl space' phenomenon. When you find yourself in a situation where you can't use an IDE you're helpless.
It is good for all developers to stay in front of technology. To say that the 'cannot possibly develop without' it.... well maybe a way of manipulating their bosses in to upgrading.
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence."
<< please vote!! >></div>
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You can have your panhead, I'm enjoying my BMWR1200R.
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I agree. Using an IDE because it does a lot of the grunt work for me doesn't imply that I've forgotten how or was never capable of doing it manually, only that I have other things to do with my time. I know how to use a broom and vacuum... but I prefer to let my Roomba do it for me.
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John Crumpton wrote: I prefer to let my Roomba do it for me.
My wife does that. Sometimes. Maybe. Or we just move. :shrug:
Generally I use Visual Studio when I need the Designer or debugger or to explore an unfamiliar namespace. If a particualr task doesn't require any of those, then VS isn't helping.
Oh, one other reason I use VS is for manipulating TFS; I treat the TFS repository as a Project on its own.
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You're not comparing VS with fine German engineering, are you? 
Just a BMW's ABS means it shouldn't crash as often as VS. 
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VS to BMW is like Lada to Learjet.
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I wonder if you boss knows you are doing this, or may be you don't have a boss. 
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My boss is only interested in the SSIS part of what I do and having it in TFS; and that requires VS.
How I write the utilities that I use to make my job easier doesn't interest him.
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Well, for that he (and you) can just install Atom.io[^]
Decrease the belief in God, and you increase the numbers of those who wish to play at being God by being “society’s supervisors,” who deny the existence of divine standards, but are very serious about imposing their own standards on society.-Neal A. Maxwell
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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I think I looked at that a few years ago.
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A few "years" ago?  It's only just recently been released... Perhaps you're a time traveler?
Decrease the belief in God, and you increase the numbers of those who wish to play at being God by being “society’s supervisors,” who deny the existence of divine standards, but are very serious about imposing their own standards on society.-Neal A. Maxwell
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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You're thinking of the latter, but that was the "beta". It is now out of beta and has been "released". There was a post about it in the last few weeks in the "Insider News" forum.
Decrease the belief in God, and you increase the numbers of those who wish to play at being God by being “society’s supervisors,” who deny the existence of divine standards, but are very serious about imposing their own standards on society.-Neal A. Maxwell
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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