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I can respect that. I have a few beliefs like that around scripture which is why I'm not religious about it, despite being endlessly fascinated with it. I love information transfer via mythos because of allegory which engages higher level pattern matching. =D, and Torah is as intricate and interlocking as anything I've ever encountered despite what people say (usually atheists about the OT). It doesn't have to be entirely coherent to me to be valuable, and I'm sure there are people out there who can make sense of the bits I cannot. I don't consider myself the smartest person in any given room. I know better. Heh.
Anyway, totally off topic, rambling but there it is.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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mmmmm.. interesting...
But.. it's communism that abolish private property, socialism, afaik is not against private property. The nuance seems lost on people...
Or, if I am mistaken too, I need to know the name of the philosophy that suggest to use some tax money for the common good...
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Super Lloyd wrote: But.. it's communism that abolish private property, socialism, afaik is not against private property.
I think you're thinking of Democratic socialism, which is more an effort to reform capitalism than it is socialism. It was created by socialists as a third way compromise which is why the naming confusion.
As I understand it socialism does seek to abolish private property. The differences between socialism and ccommunism is that communism is a subclass of socialism with the presence of a total welfare state. Edit: COMMUNISM not capitalism. 
Lenin argued that the end result of socialism was always communism. I understand where he was coming from but I don't think I agree.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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well.. the problem here is, I believe, that many people, me amongst them, would claim to be socialist while also supporting private property right.
So, if we are not socialist, what are we?
To detail the kind of thought those people share (only in vague and general term, it's not a philosophical argument here, just trying to get better naming):
belief in private property, belief in the rule of law, (fuzzy) belief that the state should protect the weak from the strong, belief that taxation is acceptable (nay necessary), belief that taxation is not just for police force and military but also for public service, belief that the list of public service should be stretched as much as affordable including (but not necessarily limited to), roads - public health - education - welfare
so what are those named?
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either liberal or democratic socialist.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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Under capitalism the rich get powerful. Under socialism the powerful get rich and everybody else gets poorer.
I, for one, like Roman Numerals.
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In my opinion it is because most people have only vague ideas, at best, of what those terms actually mean. Currently, those whining against what they see as a socialist movement obviously don't know because what they whine about is NOT socialism. They then turn around and advocate socialist policies. I find it very amusing to see people advocate what they are whining about.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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This entire discussion is why I am glad I live in a republic that despises "democracy." I only hope the American people can hold on to it (Americans - name the source).
Now I know many of you are from all over the world, but as an American, I am appalled at the level of ignorance our government education system fosters. After reading all of the comments and the explanations of this and that, it still comes down to private property rights. Can a citizen keep the fruits of their labor? If I'm smarter than you, should I not benefit from my investment in my education, late nights and many failures, finally to make myself profitable?
No? The result is no one works: Soviet Union, old style China, possibly parts of new China, Venezuela, etc. The consequences are poverty. Many of you on CP are from Eastern Europe. You know what I am talking about.
Parse it any way you want. Take any smart ass shoveling these ideas, take away his income because the state deems it worthy to give to someone else, and that smart ass *will* *stop* *working*. It's been proven over and over again.
TANSTAFFL
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I don;'t even see how your response relate to my question, haha!
Or maybe you took this opportunity to go on a tangent, yet related topic, perhaps?
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Do not kid yourself. Socialism is about taking the money (Substitute for Goods and Services) from people that work hard and contribute to society and giving it to people to who don't. This is done via Taxation in the United States. e.g. Food Stamps and Welfare.
Having said that, there are many people physically and mentally incapable of working that really do need help. Those folks should be cared for. Unfortunately, they are far outnumbered by those that scam the system.
It is a difficult problem faced by all nations. Think Aesop's the Ants and the Grasshopper fable.
Socialism has failed as an economic structure, see the USSR.
Adam Smith - Supply and Demand. It's not just a suggestion or theory, it's the LAW.
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Err... URSS is communism, not the same thing....
there are 2 words because.. there are 2 differents things
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Whatever the reason for you taking a break at this time (and even if you do not) , I wish you all the best!
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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some soldiers of two opposing forces hearing each other sing the same songs [albeit in different languages] came together to celebrate in a friendly game of soccer.
how could this be? they told us the 'other side' was evil, godless and perhaps not even human. Seems evil was not to be found across the field between those trenches, in fact what was found was kindness, celebration, and that the other side were people just like us.
WHAT VERY FEW EVER ADD:
Not all were Christians, but even those that weren't were allowed (not forced) to share in the celebrations.
To all: Merry Christmas, and peace on Earth. Remember: Your choice to accept or not.
<< Signature removed due to multiple copyright violations >>
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Oh.. I thought it was your birthday! 
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nah, sticking to more recent events 
<< Signature removed due to multiple copyright violations >>
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Ha, yeah, of course! 
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I got my longest lasting chrismas present ever: My old Elf II computer. It still works, but it has gotten old. The bus connectors don't have good contacts anymore, the keys on the hexadecimal keyboard are worn out and my experiments long ago have left some occasional weird glitches. On a good day the old dog is as good as ever, but most of the time it's not really a pleasure to do something with it anymore.
High time for retirement, but not without a replacement. I'm going to take the old Elf apart and check all the soldering, clean up the dust of 41 years on the boards and the connectors, remove all remains of my old modifications and repair whatever needs to be repaired. And then I hopefully have a grandpa of a computer from the time when you could not just buy your next one in any store.
And today I have opened my 'present', a box full of electronic parts, plus a device to program microcontrollers and some microcontrollers to play around with. And now the replacement for the old Elf is taking shape on a breadboard. Just 6 ICs. The microprocessor, an 32k EEPROM, a 32k RAM, two simple logic ICs and a MAX232 for serial communication. On the breadboard I'm going to clock it with slowpoky 1.0 MHz, but the processor can officially go up to 5 MHz and was also often overclocked. Not bad for a processor from 1976 and memory access times are not an issue anymore as they were then.
And if you have read carefully, you may have noticed that there is no UART on the breadboard. So how is this little computer going to do serial communication? The MAX232 IC only shifts the voltages of the input and output signals, nothing more. The processor has some programmable I/O lines, like a microcontroller. The RS232 protocol is bit banged in software. At 1 MHz this will not be very fast, 300, maybe 600 baud, but it's going to be enough to hook it up to an old notebook with terminal emulation.
If everything goes the way I would like it to, I can have the breadboard version running in a few days and can have a small board made. This minimal computer will allow to test the old Elf's expansion boards more easily and also to test all expansions, one at a time, without having to build the entire thing on breadboards.
The name was a little hard to come up with. Elf III? Boring. Super Elf? That one already was taken 41 years ago. It was your fondness of puns and wordplay here that gave me the idea: Zwölf. In German 'Elf' has several meanings and Zwölf is then the logical name for something that comes after Elf.
Now what kind of expansions might a real zwölf need?
First, I'm going to throw out the EEPROM and replace it with a pin compatible RAM. So how is the Zwölf going to start up without a ROM? The old Elf did that the simplest way. The processor has a 'LOAD' operating mode, where it does nothing but wait for some external device to request DMA. When that request comes, the processor acts as a DMA controller, stores the byte in memory and waits for the next request. That external device was the hexadecimal keypad and hexadecimal display. You were able to enter and start a program without a shred of software involved. As a bonus, both the hex keypad and displays would act as regular I/O ports at runtime.
For the Zwölf I want something a little more modern. A cheap 8 bit PIC microcontroller enters LOAD mode and feeds the bytes from a tiny serial ROM to the processor after every reset. This way I can load a BIOS or bootloader and can still support all old Elf features, including the 'all RAM' memory configuration. PIC microcontrollers will also have to encode the new keypad and act as display drivers. Hexadecimal encoders/drivers are hard to get these days.
Then the Zwölf needs a little more memory. Let's say, 16 mb banked memory should be enough for an 8 bit processor. Old Elf only has 4k and I had to sell my childhood to the neighbor's kids to get them. Ever since then I have expanded the memory of every new computer to the brim. There is no such thing as enough memory. Ever. Before I really build that, I would first like to test this with the ProtoZwölf and the breadboard.
Graphics are going to be a bit boring. In 'old Elf mode' the Zwölf should use the ancient CDP1861 graphics chip. It's really great. Hook this thing up to the processor's bus and get instant graphics. Monochrome and quite low resolution, but graphics with a single IC. This IC is extremely hard to get. It's probably been out of production for 35 years and almost impossible to buy anymore. The one in the old Elf is off limits off course, but I still have two spares in perfectly new condition. It also bogs down the processor to 1.79 MHz, so it is only useful to stay compatible to the old Elf. The Zwölf should run a little faster when it's not trying to be compatible.
The problem is that there are no graphics generators around anymore that might be useful. An 8 bit processor can only move so many bytes over it's bus, so colors and resolution must stay within certain limits. Bottom line: There are only two graphics generators that are suitable and fairly easy to get: The Motorola MC6847 and the Texas Instruments TMS9918. I don't like the TMS9918's organization of the video memory. It essentially has no real linear pixel graphics mode. And I found a 6847 in my parts box, so that's going to be it.
Last, I'm going to need some I/O ports. Here the microcontrollers will have to help out again. I'm going to need PS/2 ports for a keyboard and a mouse. I also want to use a microcontroller as an IDE port for mass storage. IDE is easy to do and I can use it with real (old) hard disk drives as well as with SD memory cards. Add a UART for a serial port and a parallel port and we're done with I/O. Almost. Does anyone know a good 8 bit sound chip that is still available?
And why build one Zwölf when I can have three in one? Why not let one Zwölf execute the program, the next one does the I/= and all the hassle with the FAT32 file system and the third one does graphics. Multitasking, 3D graphics or a UI? No problem for a Zwölf with three processors. I just need a suitable interface between the processors. Shared memory buffers? Simple, but lots of discrete logic on the boards. Serial connections are easy to do, but the slowest option. My best bet right now is bidirectional parallel ports. Faster than serial and almost as easy to build, far less logic than shared memory.
Whew. What a rant. So how do you like the Zwölf? I'm going to have years of fun if I really want to build all that.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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I somwhat envy you ...
CP mostly for programming articles but it is definitively the ever best base for some series... Consider it...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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The Elf always was of great help to Santa too 
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I bet![^] Wasn't that guy a saint before he worked for Coca Cola?
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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That is great!
My "today" (very mild) version of that:
Last night, I connected one of my Raspberry Pi's to a 7 year old 32" television. I then connected, over the Internet, to an NVR with 11 surveillance cameras. Ran video at 1080. All cameras run and record 24/7 at 15 FPS. The (large) thumbnails looked good, with smooth video. Bringing a single camera up gave smooth (as much as 15 FPS does) and good playback of recordings. All this with a $35 computer (NVR is a 5 year old computer bought via eBay).
Normally, I run the Pi headless and connect via tightvnc and openvpn.
Happy day!
Lou
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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In many ways the Raspberry Pi is the modern version of the Elf. As much of a computer as you can get out of minimal hardware and expandable in every direction. No wonder that both are built around RISC processors which try to be microprocessors and microcontrollers at the same time.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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kmoorevs wrote: but suppose I'd better keep the wife happy...
Very wise
kmoorevs wrote: I'd really rather code for another hour or two, ... .I can always get back to it later tonight!
No, if premise #1 is not fullfilled 
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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The code will be the same way you left it no matter how long you're gone.
The missus, not so much.
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I'm on a roll and would like to keep going...but glance at the clock reminds me that it's quitting time and I have a Christmas Eve dinner to attend with the missus in a couple of hours. 
I'd really rather code for another hour or two, but suppose I'd better keep the wife happy...I can always get back to it later tonight!
