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Keep us informed on the results, that is highly interesting.
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Intellectual Property Lawyer?
The only one that comes to mind is . . . my son. Lives here in USA, but his company has him travel a lot (EU) - and he's passed through Spain; mostly he's been to more northern countries.
A corporate lawyer so it wouldn't be helpful to you, anyway. Those laws, like most laws I suppose, can be pretty messed up.
Laws: written primary by lawyers so you need to hire a lawyer to understand what's going on.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Laws: written primary by lawyers so you need to hire a lawyer to understand what's going on.
Here in Norway, there has for at least 30 years (I think it is more than that) been a language expert going through all proposed laws and changes in laws, to ensure that they are reasonably readable to common man.
The first one in the job (Finn-Erik Vinje), university professor in Norwegian language, was for 20+ years the primary language consultant of the Norwegian public radio, and for 25 years he was the host of a very popular weekly radio progam about the Norwegian language. So, he knows very well both everday and formal Norwegian. He retired 15 years ago, but was followed by another guy (Sylfest Lomheim), carrying very much of the same qualifications.
As a result, Norwegian laws are surprisingly readable even to common man. Older people (that is, my age...) remember laws as something cryptic that - as you say - requires a lawyer to understand. When I drag them over to my PC, showing them how easily you can access the database presenting all laws, and all accompanying regulations, and how readable the texts are, they cheer up: Hey, I can understand that! (Younger people have accessed the laws on the web for 20+ years; they know that the laws are easy to understand.)
The Norwegian law system has a few other aspects making them easier to understand: We have no regional or local laws; all laws are national. A town may have its local parking regulations, but that is because the national laws explicitly leaves specific details to local regulations,serving as "local interpretations" of the national law (e.g. local parking regulations). You are judged by the national law; if a local regulation wasn't founded on a national law, it couldn't be used against you in court.
Fairly recently it was decided that all supreme court verdics over the years will also be made publicly available (for free) to everybody. Until now the have been available to lawyers, but before they can be publicized, they will be scrubbed of private and personal information, to anonymize the parties.
I guess we are quite well off in this country with respect to laws. There are of course lots of borderline cases where you need a lawyer's help to know which side of the line you are on (and to help you make it look as if you are on the legal side...), but generally speaking, you can understand the intention of the laws even if you have no degree from the university.
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Readability is only part of it. There's a law here, in US, similar to that (at least with new laws) although I don't recall if it Federal or only NY State.
That's only a part of the problem.
The subtleties of the law and reliance on precedent make it difficult or impossible for a normal human being to handle anything. An example, when I lived in West Virginia, was that I was suing another driver because his company didn't offer enough to repair (or replace) my car. In my complaint (small claims court: $25 out of my pocket, not reimbursable even if I win) I noted that the defendants insurance company made an offer. Well, the company had lawyer (no defendant) and they argued that since I mentioned a settlement was offered it invalidated my claim.
That insanity is the law in WV. How would any rational human being know that? There were enough other things that I would need to hire a lawyer to get the full amount. A difference that, after legal fees I could not sue for, would make my efforts a total waste of time. My legal representative would cost at least that much.
There's other BullShirt in the laws - everywhere. Readable though yours may become, how much reading can you do compared to someone's who's paid to read and know that crap?
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
modified 16-Jan-20 11:00am.
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W∴ Balboos wrote: sutultieses
what does that mean? Is it a misspelling? Google doesn't know either.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Fixed it: subtleties
That weird incarnation was one of several tried to invoke the spell checker into doing a righteous deed. A moment's distraction, since it didn't, and it was posted for your viewing pleasure.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Ah, yes, the law can be very subtle and catch you unawares.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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I'm glad your laws are readable. Most laws actually are in most places. However, when a particular law has 1000 pages and 200 addenda each with 100 pages, then you need a lawyer regardless of how "readable" and "understandable" a law is.
However, in this case, we're talking contracts between two entities. Such contracts become a law unto themselves and as such need to cover whatever eventualities you can think of and all the ones you can't think of. Can be rather thorny.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote: when a particular law has 1000 pages and 200 addenda each with 100 pages
Lawbooks in the US are worlds apart from ours.
My most recent hardcopy complete collection of Norwegian laws is a few years old, but the total volume is less than 3000 pages. Out of that, the penal code is 65 pages (I was really surprised when I checked, that it is that compact). Within those 65 pages, it is well structured in sections for each class of criminal offense. Since my hardcopy was printed, we have had a major revision of the penal code, so maybe today's version is somewhat enlarged - but it certainly is within the same order of magnitude.
And, we've got a single national law. Not fifty different state laws, with federal laws on top of it. We have got no county or city laws. (You still have those in the US, don't you? Or is that something of the past? - I guess that could vary from state to state.)
"Laws" of the European Union (we are not full members, but in may areas we are obliged to follow their directives) are not true "laws", but directives for how the lawmakers in each country should phrase their national laws - which are the only laws you can be sentenced by - so that they are "harmonized" across national borders. If you compare counties even as close as Norway and Denmark, once one country, how differently they have interpreted the EU directives for harmonizing their laws, you may think that EU directives are mere jokes. (I know it from the copyright/IP side, but I have noticed it in other areas as well.)
For my favorite law, I have to pick up an older hardcopy - several years ago, the lawmakers did a cleanup, removing a lot of old and "irrelevant" laws. I think it is a pity that this one was axed, it is from 1687 (in an on-the-fly translation by me, which in no way should be considered autoritative):
"If any man's farm animal bites, beats or attacks another man's farm animal so that it dies, then the owner of the animal that killed shall pay a compensation to the man whose animal was killed. If the killed animal was a better animal than the one that killed, then half of the value of the killed animal shall be paid. If the animal killed was inferior to the one killing, the full value of the killed animal shall be paid."
So the owner of the brutal killing ox (or whatever) is faced with a choice: Should I admit that my neighbour's animals are better than mine, and get away with only compensating half its value, or should I be proud, inisisting that my oxen are a lot better than his, even though it it means that I will have to pay its full value?
I like this sort of "legal servo mechanism", sort of selv compensating. It makes me think of king Solomon. More laws should be in that style.
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Yeah, sounds rather Biblical.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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I'm glad to hear it! 
Real programmers use butterflies
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Yay! Good for you!
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Assuming the lawyer is always right is the first mistake. It's someone that managed to pass a particular exam.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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Get on The Evil List: Which tech companies are doing the most harm?[^]
I mean, if you can't beat them, join them.
All these companies didn't get big for nothing.
And their CEO's are among the richest people on earth.
Clearly, it pays to be evil 
That said, I'll still continue to use 2, 3, 7 and 15 on the list.
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You'll probably be using No. 27, as well. 
I use Nos. 1, 3, 7, 15, and 27 on the list.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Never heard of them, sounds like something from a dystopian sci-fi movie.
I'm not from the USA so I'm probably not using it 
Amazon isn't big in the Netherlands because it has been absent for a long time.
I recently ordered something on Amazon.fr and Amazon.co.uk, but that's a coincidence.
Us Dutch get our stuff from bol.com
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Sander Rossel wrote: Never heard of them, sounds like something from a dystopian sci-fi movie.
I assume that in the Netherlands you use bicycle and/or windmill power (or possibly - Leyden jars )
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote: windmill power
LOTS!
Daniel Pfeffer wrote: or possibly - Leyden jars
Never heard of them 
Daniel Pfeffer wrote: bicycle
Also lots, but not to power our houses
Unfortunately, our government decided to use lots of "green" bio mass which turned out to be not so green
Of course there were reports about this before they started using it, but the government ignored that and now they can't go back.
If the government was a company they'd be at the top of the evil list, then there would be a lot of nothing, then some more nothing, and then the list as it is now.
On the other hand, don't attribute to malice that which can simply be explained by stupidity.
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Hoist by their own petard: Numbers 8 and 2 are prominently linked right at the top of the article...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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And on the bottom as well.
Perhaps the most evil thing about these companies is that it's hard to do without, or perhaps that's what made them evil in the first place.
I could do without 8 and 2, but lots of companies obviously can't.
But can you imagine a modern life without Google? 
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I don't use 2 or 8, never have done. But without google, you're left with Bong* - and MS is on their list as well ...
* yes, yes - I know of Duck Duck Go and such like, but I remember how they introduced themselves - by adding toolbar after toolbar to browsers until you had more tools than browsing window...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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OriginalGriff wrote: * yes, yes - I know of Duck Duck Go and such like, but I remember how they introduced themselves - by adding toolbar after toolbar to browsers until you had more tools than browsing window...
You mean like this one?[^]
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I don't see one from DDG there -- AFAIK, they don't even produce one.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Sander Rossel wrote: can you imagine a modern life without Google?
I have android phones, but I also have google blocked, both on the phones and on my computers.
It's extremely easy to live without google.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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