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Gotcha! Thanks.
Although it now seems I am not as useful as I once thought I was 
[must work harder]
------------------------------------
I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC Link[ ^]
Trolls[ ^]
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Dalek Dave wrote: Gotcha!
really? the other thread didn't explain it in any detail...
did the specs (the FAQ) change? is it going to? was there an implementation error? which one?
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they preserve indentation, improve readability, and make me actually look at the code.
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Currently, questions posted in the forums don't appear to be editable (not that I can see) whereas those in quick Q&A section are. Questions should probably be treated the same whether posted in the Q&A section or the forums to allow for edits (example adding pre tags).
Here's a good example of a forum post that needs editing:
http://www.codeproject.com/Forums/1647/C-Cplusplus-MFC.aspx?fid=1647&tid=3862417[^]
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I will hand the floor to Luc and step back. Way back.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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why do i feel like there's something i don't know and somehow should? 
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...and do note i posted in form of a question... jeopardy-like... 
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IMO no more than they are now.
Forum messages are editable by their author, which is fine. The author knows best what he wants; he decides what his problem is, and how he describes it best. When information is missing in the original question, just invite him to add it in. When better formatting is required, tell him. If he were to ignore your suggestions, he shouldn't expect your further replies; if he can't be bothered providing a sufficiently detailed and well formatted question, I can't be bothered answering it. I'm not going to spend time in answering nor improving lazy questions, and neither should anyone else.
The one thing that is missing badly in the forum message editor is code sniffing: whatever gets pasted by a message author should be passed through something similar to PRE tags galore: LPCodeRecognizer[^] so composing gets easier, and the probability of proper formatting increases. It was for the forums I created the article, however the idea got hijacked and was implemented in some parts of the Q&A/T&T subsystems, and not in the forums at all.
Inconsistencies in this site are plenty; you can (and should) have images and downloads in articles, all or most people can't have them in T&T, Q&A, and forums; you can insert emoticons in forum messages, you aren't supposed to do so in Q&A; you get different rep points for Q&A and forum activities (e.g. for reasons unknown to me a Q&A bookmark is worth twice as much as a forum bookmark); Q&A answers can be "accepted", forum answers can't; etc. etc.
This is the piece of information you are missing: it has been my opinion since day one both Q&A and T&T were unnecessary and expensive diversions; the forums are more interesting than anything Stack Overflow has been coming up with, CP trying to copy it was unwarranted, and it has taken a zillion iterations to give Q&A some of the discussion stimulating capabilities the forums have had since very long. This site would have been better of if half the effort had been spent in improving the existing article and forum subsystems (articles have improved considerably, forums have been left mostly unchanged for two years now). If CP had focused on nurturing and improving the good things they had rather than adding new and mostly redundant subsystems, there would have been all the functionality we needed, with less code to maintain, fewer bugs and inconsistencies, and more quality overall.
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they preserve indentation, improve readability, and make me actually look at the code.
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I do respond to Q&A postings - because some posters really deserve help, but I also agree with your comments on the general direction taken by CodeProject over the last couple of years.
The best things in life are not things.
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Luc Pattyn wrote: ...since day one both Q&A and T&T were unnecessary and expensive diversions; the forums are more interesting than anything Stack Overflow has been coming up with, CP trying to copy it was unwarranted, and it has taken a zillion iterations to give Q&A some of the discussion stimulating capabilities the forums have had since very long. This site would have been better of if half the effort had been spent in improving the existing article and forum subsystems (articles have improved considerably, forums have been left mostly unchanged for two years now). If CP had focused on nurturing and improving the good things they had rather than adding new and mostly redundant subsystems, there would have been all the functionality we needed, with less code to maintain, fewer bugs and inconsistencies, and more quality overall.
This rings so true on so many levels. It's truly frustrating to me, to see so much effort being spent on such meaningless, trivial stuff; while at the same time, the things that made CodeProject so great have languished for attention.
What vision are you chasing, Chris? What makes all these bugs, inconsistencies, and redundant features worth it?
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He gets a lot more interaction time with the people who use the site a lot. Silver linings guys - it's all about the silver linings. 
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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my 5 on that! ...its very true, you have to definitely account for the average user a lot more than the experts.
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I was actually trying to be funny.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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i wouldn't say it to be funny though... the experts already know how everything in the site works, even the bad things... but the average question asker and browser wouldn't really know...
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its sort of like... developing for a user versus developing for an expert... hence most people hiding most of the advanced options, as to not overwhelm the average user.
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you need all kinds; and you can't ignore the experts, they do provide answers and articles.
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they preserve indentation, improve readability, and make me actually look at the code.
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that's true
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The vision is twofold:
1. Help software developers in their job of developing software
2. Give developers a place meet and discuss software development with like-minded people
I'd say we've achieved both and, obviously, can do many more things, and many things better. This will never change, no matter how we polish features because requirements will always change.
For Quick Answers the vision was to fix a few issues with the discussion forums that, for many, were a source of pain
- questions where being continually posted in the wrong forum
- The forum structure (all questions and answers on one page) meant search engine links were always wrong. They would link to one question even though the keyword was on another question higher on the page. This made our search results from Google, for instance, less than useful.
- the quality of the questions was going downhill
- the mechanism for understanding when a question was solved ("mark as accepted") simply wasn't being used
Quick Answers makes it easy to post a question and tag it by what you think it should be tagged and not by our restricted number of forum topics. If the post is plain awful it can be updated to be more readable which makes it easier for others to read. Filtering for only those questions you are interested in is now possible.
Links to questions and answers from search engines are spot on and so now we can help more devs find answers to similar questions they have.
The new reputation system rewards those who answer and those who edit, and provides a safe way to automatically say who should be trusted and who needs more time, and the new reporting system we've added makes it easier to quickly report items that should be removed (for QA) or that need to be given attention (articles, tips), with the added benefit that it's also being used in the moderation system - thus answering a long term complaint that a single approval was allowing bad articles through, and that approvals (and reports) weren't generating rep points.
Tips and Tricks is something we wanted for ages as a way to allow authors to post snippets and to stop the "this is too short for an article - go away" comments on short articles. Those comments are disheartening.
Ultimately we wanted to replace the programming forums with Quick Answers but Luc and others were vociferous in their opposition and they had a great point: not everyone wants to ask a question and leave. Back-and-forth discussions can be the best way for someone to understand something, and we do need a place where we can discuss technology, as opposed to just feeding answers to members who need quick answers to their problems.
As to how we reconcile this dichotomy? Initially I was planning on merging the two but I've come to realise this won't provide the best of both worlds. This will make the supporters of both systems unhappy.
For the article system
Tips and Tricks is one piece but there are a couple of further things we need to add. From a usability point we're rewriting the submission wizard since it's awful, and because our move to using Google as our email provide has made sending source code with exe's in it impossible. A crucial part of the news submission wizard will be the ability to edit all your articles, anytime, while ensuring moderation of content is still in force.
Our hardware
For our hardware we have just completed one of the finishing pieces which was to get full redundancy on our hardware and improve speed. I don't talk much about that, nor do you really get to see what's happening, but that is as important as anything else.
We are trying to cater to many different audiences and I tend to try to cater to everyone which can be distracting, if not impossible. Hans - you want the 1-5 voting system gone. Luc will boycott us if he can't vote 1-5. In our conversations this seems to be your biggest complaint, but satisfying that complaint would be a disaster in others' eyes.
We've added a lot of features to CodeProject, many of them small, or subtle or just things that make other things work in ways that mean you no longer notice them. This to me is how it should be. We are working on the article system and I will continue to work on our discussion and answer systems, as well as systems that promote the members themselves. They deserve it. I think, however, I should stop chasing small requests and simply let them lie, and instead just plow through the larger issues. I'm sure this will upset some for whom their complaint de jour is a showstopper but our most passionate and vocal members have shown there is no way I can make everyone happy (at least that's how it seems) so I should just make myself, as an author and as someone who answers questions, happy.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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That was a nice read... well explained. Progress of CP in short! 
BTW, I need to accpet that it's very clear that Luc's & Han's comment hurt you bad. But I doubt if that was their real intent.
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Sandeep Mewara wrote: I need to accpet that it's very clear that Luc's & Han's comment hurt you bad
I'm not that thin skinned. Their comments make me feel I am not being transparent enough, and also frustrate me in that I may not be being loud enough in letting the community know the changes I'm making and the reasoning behind such changes. I just truly wish there were more hours in the day to get everything done, but the trick is simply to prioritise better and learn when to say no.
In any case this has generated some valuable discussions in the office.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: Their comments make me feel I am not being transparent enough, and also frustrate me in that I may not be being loud enough in letting the community know the changes I'm making and the reasoning behind such changes
Ok. Got that.
Chris Maunder wrote: . I just truly wish there were more hours in the day to get everything done, but the trick is simply to prioritise better and learn when to say no
Chris Maunder wrote: In any case this has generated some valuable discussions in the office.
Oh.. more positives then... 
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Thanks for a great message. Much appreciated. I can only wish you update or repeat this regularly. I learned a few things, and agree with most of what you said.
I agree there were good reasons to extend the existing capabilities, however I think I would have tried harder and stuck on to the simpler model if at all possible, both for the user's sake and the implementor's. "Do more without significantly adding code" would be the attempted motto.
I still wish there would be a unified way to handle articles and T&T (and blogs), as IMO they will continue to besiege each other's territory (T&T wanting ever more functionality: downloads, images, ...), some articles still tending to be rather short. As you explained the rationale now, I think I'd treat and store them all as one, provide several ways of entry (so the user picks what suits him best), automatically determine their type (real article, memo type, tip/trick, whatever; or maybe just size and hasDownloads), and list them any way the user wants.
And I still wish there would be a unified way to handle both forum threads and Q&A, as their border isn't clear and solid; what starts out as a simple question may turn into a real discussion, and what gets launched as a discussion opener could be cut short by a reply holding a link to an existing article that deals with all of it. So here too I would try and opt for one repository, possibly several ways for entry, and possibly several ways for listing, viewing, and adding replies/answers/solutions/comments.
Not sure what the future will bring us, new requirements and advancing insight will probably decide. However, no matter how things evolve, keep up the good work, and keep inviting and inspiring people to join and grow the community. Thanks again.
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they preserve indentation, improve readability, and make me actually look at the code.
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I completely agree with a lot of your points... a big one that I didn't even understand at first, is why there's two places to post questions (forums and Q&A) and they act so much differently, it does seem like it would be a lot of work to maintain both.
...but like you did say, I'd like to see all the good capabilities of one be in the other.
...on the other hand, I do appreciate what the site has to offer and am happy to help.
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Albert Holguin wrote: I do appreciate what the site has to offer and am happy to help
Of course. That probably applies to everyone who visits sugs&bugs.
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they preserve indentation, improve readability, and make me actually look at the code.
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+1 to what Richard said.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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