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nalorin wrote: There's no doubt that there is /some/ software out there that Microsoft does a nice job on
The only piece of software I've ever had issue with is MS Viseo which none of the context menus had any text on (wow, kinda hard to use that).
Charge exorbitant prices.... a) hello, it's a buisness, if lots of people pay it then it's not too much b) think of all the express versions of things starting to appear, and c) they get sued for giving out free stuff with their OSes (e.g. I.E., Media Player, VIRUS SCANNERS!?!?!?!?)
Do you like fishes? I do.
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Johan Boule wrote: no unix developer frequent the site
Are there many of those left anymore? They had us using Unix systems at college and I've rarely seen it since. I was under the impression it was going the way of the Do Do.
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Johan Boule wrote: mostly has MS-Windows-related developers.
Yeah, it's not a huge surprise to see MS being in the lead here. Despite the fact both Apple and MS has copied dev ideas from companies like Next and so on.
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I think there are not as much professional Developers for other systems. But it's not the developer - it's the market. In how many Software companies did you work that didn't develop for Windows OS?
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We may all have days when we would like to throttle someone at Microsoft for some seeming stupid gotcha which causes you hours of work around time and their bad documentation, but their development environment and .net framework are hands down the top of the line. By the way I use Vista for all my development (running on a iMac under VMWARE Fusion at work and standalone on my system at home. It is by far the best OS out there. No, I do not work for MS nor do I own any MS stock.I have been a developer for over 30 years on many systems so I know a little of what I speak.
When prediction serves as polemic, it nearly always fails. Our prefrontal lobes can probe the future only when they aren’t leashed by dogma. The worst enemy of agile anticipation is our human propensity for comfy self-delusion. David Brin
Buddha Dave
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David Lane wrote: I have been a developer for over 30 years on many systems so I know a little of what I speak.
Aren't we all . . .
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadol
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ok, I really don't mean to k.a., but frankly, CP fits the bill: "Which company, however, does more to make Software Development a better profession? (use whatever definition of "better" suits you)"
Marc
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I will second that notion.
When prediction serves as polemic, it nearly always fails. Our prefrontal lobes can probe the future only when they aren’t leashed by dogma. The worst enemy of agile anticipation is our human propensity for comfy self-delusion. David Brin
Buddha Dave
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No, it's too addictive; I spend all too much time here.
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By screwing around with the windows O/S so frequently, they require all sorts of software to be upgrade, if not rewritten altogether.
What could possibly help the programming profession more than creating work opportunities for them?
Only one cavaet (can't blame Microsoft, either): Offshore Outsourcing.
The Converse question: who did the most to hurt software development?
Offshore Outsourcing: managements dream-child! Cheap labor. What seems like (initially, at least) a lower bottom line - just the way they like it. Never mind all the follow-up costs. And, of course, you can blame the contractor for any inadequacies.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadol
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I think it's Microsoft, just look at the VS Express Editions (2008).
Best IDE ever, .Net AND Win32 support in one single environment,
and it is FREE!
Thank you Microsoft!
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They are free because Microsoft wants to lock the future budding developers to Microsoft platforms. Every business decision is done for the good of the each company, rarely for the common greater good.
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Wong Shao Voon wrote: They are free because Microsoft wants to lock the future budding developers to Microsoft platforms. Every business decision is done for the good of the each company, rarely for the common greater good.
Of course this is true, but I don't care about, because I would have developed
for the windows platform, too, if there were no free Express Editions. 
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Me too. 
I bought my own Visual C++ 6 when I was a student. Since then, I am a Visual C++ developer. Microsoft products provides the rice on my family table.
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Of course. They're a commercial enterprise, but there is still no doubt that the express editions of the tools, sql server etc have made access to the .NET platform easier than ever. As an example, I used the express editions of VS2005 (ie web dev and c#) for a year commercially before actually buying VS2005 Standard.
I'm not suggesting for a minute that they weren't to some degree forced into it (as a result of free competition even on the .NET platform), but I believe they have seen the light so much so that there is a lot more community involvement by the way of CTP's, public betas, project web sites like Codeplex, team blogs and of course the mentioned express editions.
Commendable me thinks, even if it did take them a while to see the light.
The only thing unpredictable about me is just how predictable I'm going to be.
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Wong Shao Voon wrote: Microsoft wants to lock the future budding developers to Microsoft platforms
Hence their DreamSpark project.
Wong Shao Voon wrote: rarely for the common greater good.
Normally I'd agree with you, however when you're comparing developer tools then I'm afraid there is nothing to rival VS2008 that I have ever used or heard of anyway.
I doubt it. If it isn't intuitive then we need to fix it. - Chris Maunder
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What's Novell? 
The only thing unpredictable about me is just how predictable I'm going to be.
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Didn't they used to be a network software company back in the 80s before TCP/IP became the de facto standard? Are they even still around?
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Yes, but they're UNIX zombies. Shield yourselves.
I'd been called 'ugly', 'pug ugly', 'fugly', 'pug fugly' but never 'ugly ugly'. - Moe Szyslak
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MS tools are built around OS lock-in. MS stopped supporting c++ with VS.NET.
Don't think OS lock-in is good for us SW developers. It's good for MS, but it causes our companies to loose potential new avenues of revenue.
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you should do more research would you, microsoft has never stopped supporting c++ in visual studio. my visual studio 2008 has bot managed and unmanaged c++. heck, they even released a c++ feature pack a couple of months ago. For somethings a managed language just won't cut it. And they are well aware of that.
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I'm using all versions of Visual Studio 1.0 - VS 2005. I notice all the features available for c# are missing for c++. I mean stuff like creating accessor functions and override functions automatically.
Really Visual c++ has few new improvements since 4.0. That's when there was still competition from Borland, but once Borland left the scene they stopped making any real improvements (just marketing features).
For instance VS.NET doesn't have half the features present in Eclipse and that's a java app.
The only thing that makes VS.NET better than eclipse is the debugger.
Maybe you should be doing the reseach.
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My research is right here, http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb384632.aspx[^] I just don't relate "code completion" as a real feature. you miss it, write snippits to do it. AND your original comment was that microsoft was going for an OS lockin or something with .net. FROM [^] i can conclude that the c++ team is still very much active.
And as for the emphasis on .net it's because managed languages are all the rage these days. They're pushing against java, simple as that. (and also half the features in eclipse are also annoying).
so maybe you should get that stick out of your butt.
modified on Monday, May 12, 2008 7:42 AM
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Blah, whatever.
Waste of time talking to an MS shill
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