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Mike Mullikin wrote: I wonder if there is an inverse causation between employee turnover and company stability.
It's one giant feedback loop. Companies grow unstable, people bail; people bail, company grows unstable. (Company has layoff, thinking it will solve everything; it makes things worse, usually because they laid off the wrong people and the talented engineers start bailing and you get the feedback loop going.)
A big factor for software companies is that traditionally, they rarely gave raises and any bonuses were often in the form of stock options. Except for Novell, I've never worked at a company which gave me more than one raise and half didn't even bother. Until just a few years ago, it was openly stated in the software [only] industry that if you wanted a raise, you changed jobs.
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Joe Woodbury wrote: Except for Novell, I've never worked at a company which gave me more than one raise and half didn't even bother. Until just a few years ago, it was openly stated in the software [only] industry that if you wanted a raise, you changed jobs.
OMG!! Are you serious? It's no wonder these companies are failing left and right. I had no idea.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Joe Woodbury wrote: ...management were lying, vindictive, micromanaging, crazy bastards.
Don't sugar coat it! Tell us what you really think of them! 
I can relate all too well. One manager/supervisor I always refer to as my Former Bitch Supervisor From Helltm. She was something to behold and my coworkers under her and I have HOURS of stories to tell about her. An insecure, incompetent, control freak. She couldn't understand how everyone's mood turned against her in one memorable meeting when she screamed at a group of programmers with an average age of 30 to "GROW UP!" She tried to blame me for it later because the other programmers had nominated me, rather than her, to lead a short term project with an impossible deadline so it would have a chance of success. She opted to cancel it instead.
It was a combination of promotion to get her from something she was incompetent at to a position with the power to crack the whip.
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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A statistic I saw somewhere said that in the Software industry the average time for a developer with one employer is around 18 months so 2-4 years seems good (I have about the same ratio) having had three companies go bust while I was working for them, and in one case the owner fled the country with the FBI and the IRS in hot pursuit!
My question is, and I don't mean to cause offence but, how come you have been so stuck in a rut to still be doing the same old job for 28 years? Sorry, but you wouldn't even get to the interview stage with that record.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Forogar wrote: I don't mean to cause offence
None taken.
Forogar wrote: how come you have been so stuck in a rut to still be doing the same old job for 28 years
1. As I mentioned in another post I've been in 4 different positions over these 28 years.
2. After having grown up with some instability (father was a carpenter so work was kind of volatile) I prefer stability.
3. My company makes very complex, specialized machine tools. Each project can last several years and it takes a couple years experience before new hires are really up to speed.
4. Did I mention I'm WELL compensated? 
Forogar wrote: you wouldn't even get to the interview stage with that record.
Different world I guess. When I'm hiring its the exact opposite - I shun job hoppers as a waste of my time and money.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Forogar wrote: you wouldn't even get to the interview stage with that record.
Just out of curiosity... what negative attribute would be assumed about someone for staying at one company for 28 years?
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Breadth of knowledge and experience. I was sitting in on an interview (my boss had dragged this guy in without asking my opinion) and he was the senior programmer where he was after having worked there for 18 years. He had a PhD and thought he knew all he needed to know. It turns out he was not much better than an old C programmer following pre-written specs for an industry he knew very well. He might as well have been writing COBOL for all the advance techniques he knew (or rather, didn't know). He had no flexibility, he only knew about one thing and he was very, very good at that one thing.
It actually boiled down to attitude more than actual skill set. He wasn't the only one like that. All the people I was involved in interviewing (at this company and a few others) seemed to have the same problem. If they had been at one place, even going through the promotion steps with expanding responsibilities, they seemed to have a single-focus attitude and a narrow outlook. Not 100% of the time, but nearly.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Different worlds I guess - At my company it doesn't matter if a new hire is fresh out of school, has 15 years experience at 7 different companies using all the latest whiz-bang stuff or a 30 year PhD specialist - they're going to be learning a lot about our machines, controls and industry for at least 2 years before they start to become productive. If we don't try to avoid job hoppers we're dead - hell, I'm pissed when one of our engineers leaves in less than 10 years. 
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Different worlds, indeed. If it takes two years to get up to speed, that's a completely different animal than, for instance, what I'm currently doing. It took me no time to ramp up with the technology, and only a week or two to really feel what's going on.
I've had nine jobs, ranging from 6 months to 7 years. The 6 month thing - they treated employees with no respect/reward so an old guy like me will stand up to them ... and get fired  I've currently got a great situation that I hope to hold for many years, but ya never know. It's in the auto industry - any bets?
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One negative, and the other posts point to this, is that a LOT of people don't have 28 years of experience.
They have the SAME 2yrs of experience 14yrs in a row. (Some have 1yr of experience 28yrs in a row!).
Overall, stability is not an issue. It is the ability to deal with a pace of change.
It is the ability to adapt.
On the other hand, look at this guys company. If it takes 2yrs to get up to speed, someone who sticks around for ONLY 3yrs will bankrupt you! You never get more than 50% out of the training investment.
You have to consider that.
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Surely that comes up in interviews
I have never been asked about it. I have been an interviewer a lot as well and I don't ask it either.
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6 company in 12 years since I'm in Australia.
Hasn't been a problem, 2 years on average in a job is not problem, as far I experienced during my job interviews!
This last one is really good, I'm preparing myself for a length record! :P
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Over 35 years, two Government jobs (both 6 month contract positions) so they are still there, if not under the names they were.
Of the 5 other companies:
The first is still going, but a shadow and in a totally different business.
The second failed a year after I left (which surprised me not in the slightest - that was why I left)
The third went bust while I was there (Customer went bust, owing us 1/3 of our annual turnover)
The fourth closed about 4 years after I left following a major disagreement between the father and son I had left running it.
The fifth is still going and apparently strong (there was a purge about two years after I left and everyone I knew was "persuaded" to leave, so I don't know how well it is really doing).
Never underestimate the power of stupid things in large numbers
--- Serious Sam
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Nope.
General Dynamics Pomona Division - gone
Northrop Electromechanical Division - gone
TRW Ballistic Missile Division - gone
When I left, I turned out the lights and took the brains with me.
Will Rogers never met me.
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27 for me in June.
(1) 1987-1994 - DEC = Extinct 
(2) 1994-2000 - Kodak (Digital & Applied Imaging Group) = Extinct
(3) 2000-2003 - Startup 1 = Crashed and burned
(4) 2003-2006 - Startup 2 = Acquired by Oracle 
(5) 2006-2007 - Company 3 = Acquired by Microsoft
(6) 2007-2011 - Company 4 = Alive and well
(7) 2011-now - Startup 3 = Acquired by Ceridian
/ravi
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We worked for Kodak at the same time! At that time, I worked for Dayton Operations. I still work for Kodak, but we're called IPS (Integrated Print Solutions, or some rot like that) now.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Gary Wheeler wrote: We worked for Kodak at the same time! At that time, I worked for Dayton Operations.
I was at KBDC (Kodak Boston Development Center). Kodak was a great gig! I've made life-long friends there. We had an awesome manager - she now runs R&D @ Frog.
/ravi
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Despite the Chapter 11, Kodak is still a good place to work, at least for me. I'm doing things I enjoy, and the company seems to be more sane than a lot of the places my friends work.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Ravi Bhavnani wrote: DEC = Extinct
It's only mostly dead.
This space intentionally left blank.
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Companies - 4, 3 still around
Laid off - 1 (they went bankrupt, I was literally their last employee, and was there a week longer than anybody else, prepping all of their computers and servers for auction for the administrators)
Resigned - 2 (although talking to one of these about heading back for a while)
My own - 1 (well sorta, it's what I call myself when I do freelance work)
modified 16-Jan-14 12:13pm.
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34 years of experience, 4 companies.
Company 1: Resigned, profitable when I left; now defunct.
Company 2: Local office closed, but profitable at the time; self-performed lobotomy followed by self-performed castration, and now defunct.
Company 3: Startup, profitable but no new business coming in; essentially sold.
Company 4: Just exited chapter 11 bankruptcy; 23 years and still here!
Software Zen: delete this;
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In the late 90s and early 00s, I was headhunted extensively: I still had resumes circulating where I admitted to knowing COBOL. I chose -- regretfully at the time -- to stay with the company I was with.
Almost 18 years later, I'm still with this company and doing quite well. As far as I can tell, none of the companies that had been falling all over themselves to get me exist any more.
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20+ years, 3 companies, 2 still alive.
I'd rather be phishing!
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Most of the companies I have worked for no longer exist.
In every case the result has always ended in better employment.
The company before my current position was bought out and liquidated and production sent offshore. The CEO of that company ended up in jail for throwing a two million dollar toga party for his wife's birthday party using a million of the compnay's money. Details.[^]
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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