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OK, this is a good good question.
First of all, I don't think Paul is in the heirarchy with Chris here on CP.
Secondly, we're going to do all of this without bugging Chris too much. So all requests should go through me if possible and I will compile a list of CP improvements pertaining to projects and give them to Chris at or near the end of Phase 3 or earlier if the need arises.
Third, as for my role in all this, I may want to join a project but like you said, once the projects start I want the PLs to take over. I would like to stay involved on a global scale and give suggestions from time to time and be a soundboard for the PLs. I think of myself being the "invisible hand" leading all 3 projects to completion. (I will also be here for complaints I guess.)
Fourth, I want the PLs to be free but I want to help them set down the guidlines and the processes to make things run smoothly. That's where the abstract comes in. We need certain standards that's all.
Last but not least, project members definitely should give out their current activity and experience when asked by the PL. I don't think resumes or CVs are necessary, but code examples or past articles on CP would be good reference. I'll leave the decision making up to the PLs, so if they want to run a tight ship that's their prerogative.
BTW, I'm not ready to open the forum yet, so cool your jets. I would rather be the guy that posts things and I will start posting RFCs here soon.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Mostly I agree with you.
Paul is online alot and at times when we in Europe are awake. After Chris, he is the best one to give feedback to our ideas. If you have somebody else please put forward. The more people interested in what we do the better.
And to close down this forum temporarly was a good idea but now, or very soon, it should open up so that we can air our opinions. This RFC I don't understand so I will not say anything about that. 
The abstract you mention is perfect for giving a framework for our projects, but after that it should be free for PL to do their work without anybody interfering.
jhaga
CodeProject House, Paul Watson wrote:
...and the roar of John Simmons own personal Nascar in the garage. Meg flitting about taking photos.Chris having an heated arguement with Colin Davies and .S.Rod. over egian values. Nish manically typing *censur*. Duncan racing around after his pet *c.* Michael Martin and Bryce loudly yelling *c.* C.G. having a fit as Roger Wright loads up *c.* . Anna waving her *c.* and Deb scoffing chocolates in the corner.
...Good heavens!
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jhaga wrote:
And to close down this forum temporarly was a good idea but now, or very soon, it should open up so that we can air our opinions. This RFC I don't understand so I will not say anything about that.
RFC = request for comments
This gives me more control over what gets put out here. Without control there would be complete chaos here, so I will maintain it until the teams are formed and projects started.
Of course, this is not my web site, and all control I have is granted by you and others interested in CPP. I have no legal right to keep you from posting anything. But, if you wish this to go smoothly (as it has so far), then please continue to let me make the rules.
jhaga wrote:
The abstract you mention is perfect for giving a framework for our projects, but after that it should be free for PL to do their work without anybody interfering.
I won't interfere with the project decisions (unless I am on the team), but I will try to influence how things are run so we stay on track. Does that sound reasonable? Even if it doesn't, I'm going to do it anyway, since I have taken the initiative here. I will try not to get in the way, but I'll try to keep things from falling apart if possible.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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I don't understand why you would need to control our messages, but once I see the first RFC, maybe I will understand.
Anyhow I have been CP addict lately, and really need to do some other things. Once I get abstinens symptoms and can't stay away, I will attack you again. (just joking)
jhaga
CodeProject House, Paul Watson wrote:
...and the roar of John Simmons own personal Nascar in the garage. Meg flitting about taking photos.Chris having an heated arguement with Colin Davies and .S.Rod. over egian values. Nish manically typing *censur*. Duncan racing around after his pet *c.* Michael Martin and Bryce loudly yelling *c.* C.G. having a fit as Roger Wright loads up *c.* . Anna waving her *c.* and Deb scoffing chocolates in the corner.
...Good heavens!
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jhaga wrote:
I don't undestand why you would need to control our messages
Look at it this way, if I post something important without controling the other messages, the important message would quickly get moved to the bottom of the forum. It helps ease the confusion.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Ok, I will follow this forum with great interest.
jhaga
CodeProject House, Paul Watson wrote:
...and the roar of John Simmons own personal Nascar in the garage. Meg flitting about taking photos.Chris having an heated arguement with Colin Davies and .S.Rod. over egian values. Nish manically typing *censur*. Duncan racing around after his pet *c.* Michael Martin and Bryce loudly yelling *c.* C.G. having a fit as Roger Wright loads up *c.* . Anna waving her *c.* and Deb scoffing chocolates in the corner.
...Good heavens!
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I know Paul. I just have a bad habit of throwing in something new so that people reveal their inner soul. Apart from that I dislike stiff orgaizations and like to see people in different positions. My vision about CPP is a democratic structure were we could do fast decisions depending on the current situation. If somebody is on holiday, or sick, or away from CP for a long time, we just elect a new leader to take over and continue. I think anybody staying away from CP for more than one week can be classified as inactive if he hasn't given any reason, or what do you think?
Anyhow at the moment I am trying to get over my CP addiction. I have a bad habit of checking CP every 30 min. Once a day has to be enough!
jhaga
CodeProject House, Paul Watson wrote:
...and the roar of John Simmons own personal Nascar in the garage. Meg flitting about taking photos.Chris having an heated arguement with Colin Davies and .S.Rod. over egian values. Nish manically typing *censur*. Duncan racing around after his pet *c.* Michael Martin and Bryce loudly yelling *c.* C.G. having a fit as Roger Wright loads up *c.* . Anna waving her *c.* and Deb scoffing chocolates in the corner.
...Good heavens!
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Hi all interested Application Framework developers!
As your newly elected project leader, I need to feedback from you guys/gals! Please see my message board[^] and let me know what you think about:
1. What Is An Application Framework
I'm looking for different concepts here to provide some focus to this general idea
2. AAL or something else?
Want to participate in AAL development or start something new? Trust me, I won't take it personally if the AAL is voted down. 
3. What language/framework do you want to work in?
I only offer two choices.
4. Framework ideas.
What type of framework, what ideas for the framework?
That would be a great help in focusing the group. Please reply to my message board (link above), instead of this thread, as Jason would prefer to keep this area clean.
Thanks!
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Free Library Application Template = FLAT
------- signature starts
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio.
------- signature ends
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Free Library Application Template = FLAT
Nice
You are kinda good at this John...
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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I named many of the applications at Viewplan (a place I used to work) - our company slogan as "Windows on the Future".
Our first Windows app was called "Vista" (a wide panoramic view, indicating the program's ability to provide a variety of ways to look at the client's estate plan)
Then came "Data+", an add-on DLL that allowed the user to enter more detailed estate data.
Finally, "Progeny", a program illustrating estate planning concept of generation skipping (inherited assets skip a generation, and therefore the tax burden is reduced and delayed).
------- signature starts
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio.
------- signature ends
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Cool. The project I'm involved with is called ANDE (Advanced Non-Destructive Somethingrather).
A small component of our real-time system is called the ANDE Remote Services Extender. ARSE.
J
"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant."
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CP2 appears to be dying before it even starts if I interpret correctly the lack of enthusiasm lately. Let's hope that is not the case. Anyway...
Clearly Marc Clifton is the new PL for the Application Framework project. Congrats Marc!
Tom Welch and Roger Allen have been nominated for the position in the UGLY project. However, Tom hasn't shown himself lately, and Roger seems to have little interest in running it. If there is anyone out there that wants to be the leader for the project, please come forward.
Anders Molin is interested in running the Defect Tracking project, but Paul Watson was also nominated. Paul, any thoughts? Are you interested? If not, Anders will be declared the PL.
Here is a brief outline of what we have done and what I want to accomplish next, comments are welcome:
- Phase 1
- See who is interested (DONE)
- Collect project ideas (DONE)
- Determine projects (DONE)
- Phase 2
- Pick project leaders (IN PROCESS)
- Leaders write draft of project Abstract [outline provided] (INCOMPLETE)
- Project article series' started [will provide an outline] (INCOMPLETE)
- Project management and rules defined by leaders (INCOMPLETE)
- Team establishment (INCOMPLETE)
- Project design/definition completed (INCOMPLETE)
- Phase 3
- Coding assignments given (INCOMPLETE)
- Coding ensues (INCOMPLETE)
- QA testing (INCOMPLETE)
- Initial release (INCOMPLETE)
- Party!
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
CP2 appears to be dying before it even starts if I interpret correctly the lack of enthusiasm lately.
If true, maybe a poll on why?
Possibly because people just don't know other people well enough, or don't really care who's the project leader, or something else.
Jason Henderson wrote:
Here is a brief outline of what I want to accomplish next, comments are welcome:
Um. Where? (Your sigline followed right after the colon).
[edit]Oh. THERE it is![/edit]
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Um. Where? (Your sigline followed right after the colon).
I hit submit too soon. 
Marc Clifton wrote:
Possibly because people just don't know other people well enough, or don't really care who's the project leader, or something else.
We may have to skip this democracy crap  and I'll pick the leaders myself. 
In any case, I know you and Anders are somewhat enthusiastic, and since you aren't challenged I can start indoctrinating expressing to you the method to my madness.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
I can start indoctrinating expressing to you the method to my madness.
I feel like I'm about to be assimilated!
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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You already are.
:evil  :
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
We may have to skip this democracy crap and I'll pick the leaders myself.
LOL. I agree.
One of the lessons I've learned on project management, is that democracy doesn't work with small groups (I don't believe it works on large groups too, but this is highly OT).
Decisions I take on project management are like this:
"The project leaders are X, Y and Z. If someone doesn't agree (specially X, Y and Z), please drop me an e-mail till tomorrow."
So, in the absence of interest, things get done. And noone cares to write, so you do not even need to wait till tomorrow
Kant wrote:
Actually she replied back to me "You shouldn't fix the bug. You should kill it"
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Daniel Turini wrote:
Decisions I take on project management are like this:
"The project leaders are X, Y and Z. If someone doesn't agree (specially X, Y and Z), please drop me an e-mail till tomorrow."
So, in the absence of interest, things get done. And noone cares to write, so you do not even need to wait till tomorrow
I LIKE THAT!!!
![Rose | [Rose]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif) Gather ideas through informal discussion
Choose the idea you think is best
Announce that that idea is the way things will be done, but allow people to do email you to object
get the job done!
If people really have an serious objection, they will email you; otherwise, they won't. That's how it should be.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
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Its a little late to be undemocratic now so we'll use what we've got and eventually I think other, more relevent projects will surface.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
I know you and Anders are somewhat enthusiastic, and since you aren't challenged I can start indoctrinating expressing to you the method to my madness.
Mmmmm, Marc beat me to it, I'm starting to feel assimilated 
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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First person to take my picture and morph me into a Borg gets a lollypop.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Hmmm.
A couple thoughts--
I'd rather have the team establishment phase occur next, because I'd like to be able to interact with the team members on writing the draft project abstract. Otherwise, I'll just point everyone to the AAL, since I have no idea what anyone wants to do (and I know there are ideas out there!). Plus, if I can limit the interaction with the people interested in this project, it would make my life easier.
A personal symmantic issue, but "project design/definition" is never complete, even after everyone has taken the taxi home. I may be totally off base here, and tell me if I am, but in a loosely knit organization like this, I think the design/definition needs to remain as flexible as possible during the development. And besides, I certainly can't think of enough design/definition stuff up front, and if I do, it'll probably be wrong anyways. So flexibility is the key (gee, I sound like an Agile programmer).
One last comment, which might be looking at the leaves instead of the tree, not to mention the forest. Some people (like me!) have some pretty wierd ideas, so somewhere in this process there needs to be prototype development/evaluation to test out some of these whacky ideas. Just a thought, but it goes along the same lines as needing a flexible design/definition.
BTW, this also represents my style of self-management/leadership, which would reflect in how I would manage a team. So if anyone doesn't like what I've said here, vote me down or bail on my project or suggest some alternatives.
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I'd rather have the team establishment phase occur next, because I'd like to be able to interact with the team members on writing the draft project abstract.
True, but I think you would attract more members with a draft abstract of the project. I was thinking you could ask for ideas here and submit your drafts here also. Once your abstract (not too specific) is ready, we can start up an article series and take membership requests through the messaging system.
I have an article series draft that contains a Project Management sub-article where team members will be listed with their code assignments. I envisioned requests to join would come in through the article message system on this sub-article.
Marc Clifton wrote:
A personal symmantic issue, but "project design/definition" is never complete, even after everyone has taken the taxi home. I may be totally off base here, and tell me if I am, but in a loosely knit organization like this, I think the design/definition needs to remain as flexible as possible during the development.
Yes, but too much flexibility will delay things. I'm not talking about etching the design in stone, but there needs to be a beginning and an ending to the "concentrated" design phase, otherwise you won't start on the project. Catch my drift?
Marc Clifton wrote:
somewhere in this process there needs to be prototype development/evaluation to test out some of these whacky ideas
I also forsee a Source Management sub-article which one person will maintain (source manager?) You can run QA and demos through here. Updating articles is quite easy here on CP (as long as they aren't edited) so we should be able to change things around during the process.
Other topics:
Would you mind me being a coordinator of the projects or would you rather be independent after things get started? I wouldn't have my fingers in everything, I would just give advice for the overal process, see if things are running smoothly, so to speak. I don't know if I'll actually join a project or not since I won't have much coding time after work in a few months (wife is 5 mos. pregnant).
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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