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oh Lord I'm getting depressed by this thread 
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OriginalGriff wrote: Is it just me that thinks development is going to hell in a handbasket when the next generation enter the market?
You got it all wrong...
1. Those "lazy sunshines" will be hired by your (not your exactly  ) manager...
2. As the only one not threatening the manager "lazy sunshines" will climb to management position when current manager goes up/out...
3. You will be called back (on an emergency base) to fix the wrong, ang banged around by "lazy sunshines"...
Brave new world...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Never underestimate the power of linker and its remarkable wired error messages 
Press F1 for help or google it.
Greetings from Germany
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Fret not; this retard will never make it in "our" industry. I don't worry about idiots like this - neither should you.
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OriginalGriff wrote: maybe I'm just old fashioned, and as long as the code compiles it is correct.
That about sums it up. As I was taught (and still consider gospel), a computer will always do exactly what you tell it to do. It's your job to understand what you told it.
Will Rogers never met me.
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He's a student. Just the Technical University of my city flushes out about 500 Computer Engineers per year, not counting Electronical, Electrical, Mechatronic and Telecommunication Engineers.
Multiply over the world counting the fact that many Univesities have lower ethical standards than mine and you'd have millions of new developers per year - but many of them won't be seeing a IDE or compiler a single time in their working life.
They'll try though, but they will be rejected. We had plenty of wannabee Electronic Engineers applying for a job who couldn't distinguish a resistor from a capacitor. Standard components, not fancy ones.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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Ted Has Fly Brain[^]
So that's where marketers come from! I had wondered... 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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In cruising around town it is remarkable how many businesses and government offices have not upgraded to Windows 10, even for free. Why we might ask is this the case? At a claimed 350 million installations in the wild is the glass 1/3 full, or 2/3 empty?
Could it be corporate customers are leery of the privacy policy embedded in the new op system? Could it be they want control of how and when their computers are upgraded? Could it be they want to test patches in the context of their own organization to evaluate the impact? Could it be they have an investment in custom developed, in-house application systems which need to be checked out against op system fixes or upgrades? Could it be they do not want their employees distracted by pop-up adverts? Could it be they do not want their customer contacts, email documents, appointments co-opted? Could it be they need to develop and distribute their own company unique applications in-house?
There is a big difference between the requirements of business and government organizations carrying out activities on a day to day basis, and that of individual consumers. Windows cannot be a one size fit all.
So what can Microsoft to do in order to keep their investors hoppy?
More Here
And for gods sake get rid of this side loading crap, give your ISVs a break.
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It's because large companies take a cautious approach and generally have a huge number of old legacy systems and software which needs to be tested, replaced or upgraded first.
Otherwise, all hell would break loose.
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Supposedly W10 runs well on most (almost all say the fanboys) systems.
What doesn't play well are many legacy apps, and upgrading hardware doesn't fix that, only a boatload of money (- before you say pretty much all apps work, in a corporate government environment they need to be fully certain - even if works fine it's still paying a team to run the unit and integration tests and parallel runs to see if it does or doesn't work.)
So the choice is upgrade the OS for free but pay money to get back to where you were, or don't upgrade and pay nothing - only one of those choices is truly free.
As to the usual counter to 'do nothing/stay where you are': "but in a few years MS will stop releasing updates to W7/8 and your system will quickly thereafter crash and burn into a screaming heap of failures and virii" - anybody spreading that sort of "advice" should never be allowed on the internet, even my budgie is smarter then that. There are mission critical corporate systems out there that have have run 24/7 literally for years without updates (because they simply can not be shut down); MS updates are 99% obscure items (read the details and see), and the odd one that may matter is usually obsoleted by proper network/security control and policies.
Or to put it more plainly, how many XP machines caught fire last year just because MS cut off their updates ... Answer: NONE, because the real truth (that anybody with half a brain cell should be able to figure out): after the first couple of years MS updates are irrelevant to normal operation, they do not matter at all.
The only version of windows that actually needs updates enabled is W10, and by this time next year that should be turned off, but...
(hence a HUGE reason corps/govt DON'T want 10 - you cant turn off updates, which means you can't guarantee your systems stability.)
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Glosse wrote: And for gods sake get rid of this side loading crap, give your ISVs a break.
what do you mean?
you think removing side loading option will make life any easier for developers? 
that made me doubt your sanity....
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Glosse wrote: There is a big difference between...
And there is an even bigger difference between LOB desktop and consumer mobile requirements. Oh wait MS have a reducing footprint in the mobile so that should resolve itself!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Microsoft has gone from trying to prevent you to download windows, to trying to force it on your computer for free. The globalists want a system where you don't own your electronics. Eventualy there will be a false flag story where some child was rescued by an Amazon Echo type device, or a computer with windows 10 parsing words from audio so the NWO can search a google like database of every word said in every home
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Η Microsoft έχει περάσει από την προσπάθεια να σας εμποδίσει να κατεβάσετε τα παράθυρα, να προσπαθεί να αναγκάσει τον υπολογιστή σας για δωρεάν. Οι παγκοσμιοποίησης θέλουν ένα σύστημα όπου δεν κατέχουν τα ηλεκτρονικά σας. Eventualy θα υπάρξει μια ψεύτικη σημαία ιστορία όπου κάποιες παιδί διασώθηκε από μια συσκευή τύπου Amazon Echo, ή ένας υπολογιστής με τα παράθυρα 10 λέξεις parsing από ήχο, έτσι η NWO να αναζητήσετε ένα google σαν βάση δεδομένων του κάθε λέξη είπε σε κάθε σπίτι
I figured it might as well actually be in Greek.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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By any chance, have you attempted to write novels? If not, please do! And oh yeah, Do write facts as you see them but label the it as "work of fiction"
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I'm very glad to know that you can use your x-ray vision while cruising ... like wow ... you must have the latest version.
I think MS is going to put these little problems they had with the dud golden-eggs of Metro and Nokia well behind them, and what we're seeing now is just a bit of flatulence caused by the cash-cow getting hay that's a little ahead of itself.
Cows have seven-stomachs, and a cud, you know; it can take them a while to digest fresh goose.
I agree with you on side-loading; it is un-natural for a cow to lie on its side.
cheers, Bill
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
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BillWoodruff wrote: it is un-natural for a cow to lie on its side.
Yes, but it is fun to put them there with the help of a few drunken friends... 
Will Rogers never met me.
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Glosse wrote: So what can Microsoft to do in order to keep their investors hoppy?
Just keep doing what they are doing. That will keep investors hoppy.
Peter Wasser
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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Ummm, maybe inadvertent upgrades bricking systems might make corporate customers hesitate?
Trying to get my head around the company I consult with now. They try to standardize on a standard desktop. Can you imagine the sh*t storm if 4K desktops were updated with 60% of them no longer functional?
No, the big corps just say elephant no. No CIO or IT person would tolerate it.
Frankly, I think the way Microsoft is pushing Windows 10 is despicable.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Glosse wrote: Could it be
... most are using some flavor of *nix? 
Windows has become a consumer product, and that's what all the crappy new look & feel, starting with W8 (and then sort of shoved out of the foreground) is targeting.
The fact that businesses use Windows is because it's a choice they made a long time ago - either as a platform for their employees or because they write Windows apps as a product (or both.)
In case of the former, I wonder what the decision would be now if they were starting from a blank IT slate.
Marc
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I see Windows 10 as complete malware not to mention the security nightmare it has become for companies.
Heads should roll for ignoring customer wants and needs in this way.
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Glosse wrote: At a claimed 350 million installations
It is a counter of the downloads of W10. Has nothing to do with actual installations... For instance in my company we installed about 20 VMs (for different tests) but none of the actual machines got an update...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Microsoft needs to grow some brains! They seem to have all their brain cells with way too much good quantity of good quality coffee.
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The main issue with W8 and newer is the whole idiotic concept of a unified OS for all devices. Unifying Windows Mobile and Windows Desktop into one and the same UI is like unifying a lawn mower and an electrical shaver into one device!
What MS should have been doing is to cleanly separate the device-dependent UI layer from the rest, create core libraries for the latter, and independent UI libraries for the former.
The second issue os the forced update. That's the second example where MS threw out the baby with the bath. What they should have been doing is strictly separate security fixes from updates, and make only the former automated. They should leave the updates (i. e. anything that adds new or changes existing functionality) to the user. Yes, that complicates matters. But that's what many users want from an OS. What they absolutely don't want is an OS that could decide all by itself to change how their system works in such a way that it is no longer usable for its intended purpose. That may not be the proclaimed intent of Microsoft, but it's already happend. A lot!
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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That's a good analysis, (although I do think that some of the emerging touch-based UI idioms can teach the mouse-based UI state-of-the-art a thing or two).
In my latest system purchase, 'can this hardware run an OS other than Windows if I need to?' was a leading criteria. And that's me who's been with Microsoft since DOS 3.1 through Windows 3.0, Win NT 4.0, Win2K, Win 7. I had a happy flirtation with Linux a few years either side of The Matrix (1999!) but I value binary-compatibilty on a week-to-week basis so very much when trying to do real work, that I put up with Windows for its relatively low admin-effort. (Yes, the Linux distros have now largely sorted this). But just knowing that somewhere along the line, Microsoft decided to pinch a few GB of my bandwidth and storage (precious, on my Win 7 Pro laptop) to prime its Win 10 installation files without my desire, consent, or invitation, really speaks loudly to me. The nag adverts for the Win 10 upgrades are insulting in both their frequency and their content.
So the latest machine would have been 'Linux host OS', 'Windows guest OS', except I got scared off because of a photo-editing workflow and I wasn't sure how the monitor calibration (and graphics performance) would work out running the Adobe apps in a VM. (I briefly considered *nix-underneath MacOS/X, but that felt like it would be jumping into the fire from the frying pan *and* getting fleeced along the way). I'll have my calibration questions sorted out soon, so that I'm able to make the jump when they get too much for me.
Because Win 10 in a sense 'requires' touch, and me purchasing a desktop, I'll be getting a Wacom tablet as well. Fortunately, this makes sense for the photo-editing workflow, and it's probably work out OK. However, one does feel forced into it.
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