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location by pixel would be random, especially if he alternated the image size and resolution.
This very scenario (using images of wildlife, life around us) has been the topic of debate and research for years in regards to seeding RNGs.
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In regards to seeding - that's (I suddenly realize) a separate consideration. Seed all you want, but the sequence of values that follows is the primary concern (no?)
I can't see how pixel resolution on non-random behavior will change anything. It might increase the scope of returned values - but will not the found pixels still be clustered where the object are most often found?
Or, looking at this another way: fix locations in the tank and determine if the points are occupied or not. Still will be affected by the living creatures behavior such as feeding tending to more likely interrupt a measured point at the top by the food at certain times.
Any creature that has a behavior (for survival, breeding, etc.) will act in a manner to satisfy that behavior and destroy the randomness.
How do you remove the non-randomness of the (fishes) behavior from the measurements?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: How do you remove the non-randomness of the (fishes)
Narcotics? Lots of caffeine? 
I honestly don't know. I see your point, and raise you an extra steak burrito with chips and salsa. Sorry, its lunch time. 
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Slacker007 wrote:
Narcotics? Lots of caffeine?
Works for Me!
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: How do you remove the non-randomness of the (fishes) behavior from the measurements?
Lets first see someone recreate the same numbers without having the same fish.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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You seem to have a conceptual problem of distinguishing between random and reproducible.
If all the fish tend to huddle in a single corner it would be hard to reproduce - but the numbers you'd generate would be clustered around that location's value generation.
Thus, if you were using this to run a lottery, one would be wise to bet on numbers generated due to their clustering. However they slosh around in the cluster could make the numbers unpredictable but the tendency for certain values would increase. It could be irreproducable but the generated numbers would not be random over the number space.
You'll have to think this through for yourself - it's hard to express the difference.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: However they slosh around in the cluster could make the numbers unpredictable but the tendency for certain values would increase.
Yes, but not in a predictable way, and you can choose which part of the picture to use - so you could simply cut of the places where they cannot be (like above the waterline).
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Yes, but not in a predictable way, and you can choose which part of the picture to use - so you could simply cut of the places where they cannot be (like above the waterline).
For me "not predictable" is the same "not reproducible" but still not random.
His comment is still valid
W∴ Balboos wrote wrote: You seem to have a conceptual problem of distinguishing between random and reproducible.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Point is that it would be hard for an outsider to recreate the same random number.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Yes, that would work. Many scenarios like the one you specified are excellent source initialization for RNGs.
I have seen some that actually get the daily temperature, at given point in time, and add that to the mix too. PC temps have been (still?) used.
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That sounds like a really Cool / hot idea depending on the time of year.
It's always hot in New Orleans
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The only random number generator you'll ever need: xkcd: Random Number[^] 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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*somewhere in NASA*
"The latest trip to Mars has failed catastrophically...hundreds dead! Johnson, what went wrong?"
"Our prediction models are failing, looks like our random number generator is constantly returning zero?"
*somewhere in Slow Eddie's house*
"Who let the cat in here?"
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That was a nice Flash Fiction piece.
You could do a book of these called, That Evil Cat!, and they could all end with the line:
"Who let that cat in here?"
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Two things blow up your theory (although I love the joke).
1) My wife hates cats, and our dog does too. There would never be one in the house, not alive or for long anyway.
2) The aquarium has a lid, and even if by some totally, small, approaching 0, chance a cat did get in, its' attempts to get at the fish would only increase their random movement in an attempt to get away.
Nice!
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Creatures with even a trace of intelligence will not behave in a random manner, whether alone, or in groups (wherein they react to one another).
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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And fish tend to "group together" to avoid predation.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Not mine. They are all different species and sizes.
Variety is the spice of life.
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You can collaborate with these guys: https://www.random.org/
"It is easy to decipher extraterrestrial signals after deciphering Javascript and VB6 themselves.", ISanti[ ^]
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Random does not exist.
If you happen to have enough time to actually pursue this project, I'd rather you mow my lawn. 
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Wasting your time.
Model the female thought process instead. Truly random.
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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Too True!
Also totally impossible in my experience.
My wife came with a manual.. but it the pages were all blank
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If you were to take the camera and take a picture of the aquarium, and then calculate a hash of the resulting image file...would it really be any less "random" than applying to it the subsequent algorithm you intend to create?
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How random does your number have to be?
I usually settle for the time in ticks; for the one-time-pads I usually use a completely-unrandom movie. Big blob, lots of data.
Any particular reason why you want a "true" random number?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Honestly, I was more interested in the replies I would get.
I seem to have received both a quantity and breadth of replies way beyond what I expected.  
They span from supportive, to critical, to informative, from serious to hilarious.
It seems there is a tremendous amount of interest on this topic in the community.
Also, I am at the point of planning what to do when I finally give it all up. (Retire, shudder!)
Also, I could use another reason to keep the Aquarium.
BTW: I expected someone to mention the bubbler as a source of random input. Someone mentioned the bubbler but not as a source, only that it caused the fish locations not to be random. (I disagree with that.)
BTW: I thought someone would come up with the fact that playing GILLbert & Sullivan tunes would be greatly appreciated by the fish, causing more or perhaps less random behavior. and more puns of that nature.
Finally, I thank you and everyone else that replied to this post.
Old men need something to do, besides think about young girls and glory days.
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