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A new survey ... Stormwind12-Dec-01 14:06 Stormwind 12-Dec-01 14:06  I hope Chris will make a survey if PHB's (Pointy Haired Boss) are always putting the blame on programmers. My PHB at work asked me to create a database client. He gave no spec. He just wanted me to finish in 3 months. That I did, working like a horse. After three months, he gave additional requirements, after we stabilized our product! From there on, he regularly change the spec. After seven months, he needed another major extension, and he blames me why after seven months, I haven't produced something that suited his needs. Jerk! Anyone of you experience something like that? "Whether you have peace does not depend on your abilities, but on your enemies. If you really want peace, destroy your enemies!" Re: A new survey ... Paul Watson12-Dec-01 20:18 Paul Watson 12-Dec-01 20:18  Stormwind wrote: Anyone of you experience something like that? Did you fight hard enough with him about creating a spec first? I mean the kind of fight were you either win or get fired... hehe. But seriously you can now take this project and every time he tries a project without a spec use it as an example. Remind him "PHB, remember that 3 month cum 7 month project awhile back? That did not have a spec. This project also does not have a spec. Lets make one before you get so stressed you can't satisfy your wife anymore." Even a failed project provides valuable information. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Re: A new survey ... Stormwind14-Dec-01 17:53 Stormwind 14-Dec-01 17:53  "Did you fight hard enough with him about creating a spec first? I mean the kind of fight were you either win or get fired... " I never doubt the outcome. This guy thinks he's the Pope! I would have left him, but I am afraid I will have worse. Before this one, I had worse. Re: A new survey ... Michael P Butler13-Dec-01 2:24 Michael P Butler 13-Dec-01 2:24  I feel your pain. I've had plenty of experiences like that over the years. Now I insist on a specification. You do tend to have to fight these things and it can get a little rough. A project without a spec and a project schedule are doomed to fail, there are many books on the subject - get your boss to read a couple. Michael Re: A new survey ... Graham Douglas13-Dec-01 5:27 Graham Douglas 13-Dec-01 5:27  Sure have! I started my new role and was brought in to work on an MMC application to act as a front end to a process manager that was being coded. So I spent 6 months learning the necessaries and coding. This was all with no spec and just the odd comment thrown in from those involved. Then one guy comes in and asks if the app can do X,Y and Z. "Well, no it can't" we reply. This sifts back to our boss who then promptly accuses me and my team leader of wasting 6 months of company time. In a wonderful twist of fate, our boss upped and left. Now there's the sound of "wouldn't it be great if this had a front end..." floating around. If it happens again, they're going to give me a bloody spec and live with it! Graham Re: A new survey ... Farhan Noor Qureshi13-Dec-01 11:03 Farhan Noor Qureshi 13-Dec-01 11:03  Anyone of you experience something like that? Yes more than a couple of times Now when I insist on specs or ask them "is it final?" the *morons* ooooooops I mean the people-who-believe-they-are-Software-Engineering-gurus-but-dont-know-the-heck-of-what-it-is look at me as if I have called them a FiretrUCK. Farhan Noor Qureshi Well... #realJSOP12-Dec-01 4:24 #realJSOP 12-Dec-01 4:24  Programmers react reasonably well to suggestions about their code from other programmers. Programmers spit and cuss when approached for the same reason by mangement slugs or sales nazis. The poll question (once again) was more vague than it should have been. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 No product is ever perfect Roger Allen11-Dec-01 1:45 Roger Allen 11-Dec-01 1:45  Every product ever done will never be perfect for everybody. I have yet to see a bug free program. Criticism from users / others is a part of the job. But its better if it comes for the alpha/beta releases. Don't tell me *after* its been released when you knew ages ago....thats just plain annoying! Roger Allen Sonork 100.10016 Re: No product is ever perfect 11-Dec-01 3:38 11-Dec-01 3:38  "I have yet to see a bug free program." Here is one: #include<stdio.h> void main() { printf("I am a bug free program\n"); } Re: No product is ever perfect 11-Dec-01 3:41 11-Dec-01 3:41  Ouch, the angle brackets bit me. One more try: #include "stdio.h" void main() { printf("I am a bug free program\n"); } Re: No product is ever perfect Matthew Adams11-Dec-01 6:28 Matthew Adams 11-Dec-01 6:28  Only if the spec. required that you print 'I am a bug free program\n' to stdout. Most (serious) problems with programs are related to the expectations of the user not matching the detail of what the program does, rather than typos, unhandled exceptions etc. This is also the point where I find programmers (yes, I'll 'fess up - even me sometimes) to be most touchy - when they've spent a lot of time and effort coming up with a really cool technical solution to a problem the end user didn't have! Matthew Matthew Adams Development Manager Digital Healthcare Ltd Re: No product is ever perfect Paul Watson12-Dec-01 3:41 Paul Watson 12-Dec-01 3:41  Matthew Adams wrote: - when they've spent a lot of time and effort coming up with a really cool technical solution to a problem the end user didn't have! Like the Segway? (Ginger, IT). Being an analyst I can assure you I have butted heads many a time with a developer who thinks it would be cooler to do it his way. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Re: No product is ever perfect #realJSOP12-Dec-01 4:21 #realJSOP 12-Dec-01 4:21  VB people aren't "developers" - they're clueless hacks that "wannabe" considered developers. They could ALL improve their "code" by learning a real language (like C++). "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Re: No product is ever perfect Paul Watson12-Dec-01 4:40 Paul Watson 12-Dec-01 4:40  John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: They could ALL improve their "code" by learning a real language You mean we actually have a hope and chance? Aaaawww I never knew you cared so much John regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Re: No product is ever perfect Tim Smith12-Dec-01 4:42 Tim Smith 12-Dec-01 4:42  Being an analyst I can assure you I have butted heads many a time with a developer who thinks it would be cooler to do it his way. During design meetings it is my rule that any feature stated by a programmer that begins with "Wouldn't it be cool if..." or "Wouldn't it be neat if..." is immediately rejected. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc. Re: No product is ever perfect 12-Dec-01 4:49 12-Dec-01 4:49  Does that mean your products don't have any cool or neat features? Re: No product is ever perfect Paul Watson12-Dec-01 4:55 Paul Watson 12-Dec-01 4:55  Tim Smith wrote: "Wouldn't it be cool if..." or "Wouldn't it be neat if..." is immediately rejected. While I can tell the developers to do "cool" or "neat" stuff in their own time it is much harder when you get a client who thinks they know how to develop and start coming up with all sorts of zany features. All you can do then is scribble it down and make sure they sign the specification in triplicate. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Re: No product is ever perfect Andy Hassall11-Dec-01 9:58 Andy Hassall 11-Dec-01 9:58  void main() Just a shame that it's not valid C or C++ Andy Hassall (andy@andyh.org) Space - disk usage analysis tool Re: No product is ever perfect Roger Allen12-Dec-01 2:32 Roger Allen 12-Dec-01 2:32  Yes, you could say that this is a bug free program at your end. What about the standard libraries you are using? Can you guarantee that the stdin/stdout streams are up and running? What about a program that does something usefull? Roger Allen Sonork 100.10016 Re: No product is ever perfect James R. Twine12-Dec-01 2:56 James R. Twine 12-Dec-01 2:56  > printf("I am a bug free program\n");    If "Perfect" means "efficient" as well as "does not crash", why would you incorrectly use ::printf(...) instead of ::puts(...)?    Just a thought...    (- Yes, I know this could digress further into something asinine like using ::fputs( "string", stdout ). Note the smiley above. -) -=- James. Everybody is missing the point! 12-Dec-01 3:04 12-Dec-01 3:04  It is a bug free program, not a perfect or useful program. And it can be further simplified to: void main() { } Re: Everybody is missing the point! Michael P Butler12-Dec-01 3:09 Michael P Butler 12-Dec-01 3:09  Your attempt at humour backfired but I think you've illustrated the point about programmers being defensive about their code and applications and not taking criticism well Michael Re: Everybody is missing the point! 12-Dec-01 3:16 12-Dec-01 3:16  Yeah, I know. Chris must have me in his minds when he designed the survey. Re: Everybody is missing the point! Andrew Torrance12-Dec-01 4:17 Andrew Torrance 12-Dec-01 4:17  No it is not bug free. Show me the specification of the program , what is is intended to do ?. How often and for how long is the program to run ? A program can never be bug free , it can only be declared to match the specification. Without a spec all you are saying is that the program satisfies my requirements without actually defining what those requirements are ! Thats good enough in many circumstances . Re: Everybody is missing the point! 12-Dec-01 4:35 12-Dec-01 4:35  You must be a philosopher or at least has taken Philosophy 101. Changing or inventing definitions of concepts during an on-going argument has always been a very effective weapon used by various philosophers. Sorry, I am being defensive again.

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