Click here to Skip to main content
14,540,291 members

The Insider News

   

The Insider News is for breaking IT and Software development news. Post your news, your alerts and your inside scoops. This is an IT news-only forum - all off-topic, non-news posts will be removed. If you wish to ask a programming question please post it here.

Get The Daily Insider direct to your mailbox every day. Subscribe now!

 
GeneralRe: The role of testers in an Agile organization Pin
Dan Neely25-Feb-20 2:28
MemberDan Neely25-Feb-20 2:28 
GeneralRe: The role of testers in an Agile organization Pin
Member 798912225-Feb-20 4:01
MemberMember 798912225-Feb-20 4:01 
GeneralRe: The role of testers in an Agile organization Pin
Greg Utas25-Feb-20 5:20
professionalGreg Utas25-Feb-20 5:20 
GeneralRe: The role of testers in an Agile organization Pin
Daniel Pfeffer25-Feb-20 5:36
professionalDaniel Pfeffer25-Feb-20 5:36 
GeneralRe: The role of testers in an Agile organization Pin
Joe Woodbury25-Feb-20 13:48
professionalJoe Woodbury25-Feb-20 13:48 
GeneralRe: The role of testers in an Agile organization Pin
Member 798912225-Feb-20 22:46
MemberMember 798912225-Feb-20 22:46 
GeneralRe: The role of testers in an Agile organization Pin
Joe Woodbury26-Feb-20 7:43
professionalJoe Woodbury26-Feb-20 7:43 
GeneralRe: The role of testers in an Agile organization Pin
Member 798912226-Feb-20 10:41
MemberMember 798912226-Feb-20 10:41 
Maybe I am working with testers who do not think of it as a drag, but take professional pride in developing the best automated test setup that can be made. Who has deep knowledge of different kinds of tests, and established strategies for extending the coverage as close as possible to 100%, not only measured as code line coverage, but by e.g. functional coverage at various levels as well. (Even if you have tested every line of every block of code, you don't have full functional coverage until you have tested it in all the context this code block is used!)

Testing is not a lefthand job you learned in a one-semester course in your studies twenty years ago. It is a profession of its own, with its own professional experts, its rather advanced methods and strategies. There is no doubt that after our testing experts created our automated test framework, our software quality has increased significantly. Because it is always done. Because whenever some new corner case is identified, from then on it is always tested, in all configurations. The regression tests verify that all bugs ever corrected remain corrected - that we do not make the same error again, reintroducing the problem.

A (very) small part of testing is difficult to automate. Usually, when you sit down to discuss that with developers, trying to find out why the testers could not sneak in, immediately under the hood to test the functionality triggered by user actions, you are told that "Well, but the software isn't structured that way - everything is deeply intertwingled; we can't separate the UI from the functionality". Sure, I trust you 100%: You have a messy software structure, not designed for testing. There is a concept called "Test Driven Software Development" - those coding that way never heard of that concept! This has nothing to do with agile or sprints, but with software being a mess.

It is more the other way around: Software quality has decreased becaused many software developers create an implementation so messy that automated testing is impossible. Had they made a truly testable implementation - which is fully possible! - then you could have applied a complete, formalized testing plan that could have improved the software quality. I have seen our codebase in 6-8 years going from "80% of the tests can't possibly be automated" to "99% of the tests ave automated". I know that it can be done. I have seen it be done, been involved in it.

Do you have any reasoning or explanation why agile development, with its sprint structure, is incompatible with proper testing? Even if parts of the testing must be done by non-automated procedures, what prevents the deliveries of a sprint to be handed over to a test team for those manual tests (in addition to the automated tests)? What is it about sprints that makes this difficult? How would you describe differences from whatever are the alternatives, the non-sprint-based ones? Can you tell how and why the alternatives take better care of non-automated (and if you like to include as well, automated) testing?

I am certainly not any great fan of the agile development model; I think its basic idea is "code before you think". While other methods are are essnetially "think, then code!", agile is "code, think and then refactor". I don't like it. Yet I can't see a single reason why sprints should create any obstacle to proper testing, whether manual or automated.
GeneralRe: The role of testers in an Agile organization Pin
Joe Woodbury26-Feb-20 12:14
professionalJoe Woodbury26-Feb-20 12:14 
NewsNASA reveals ‘really exciting’ first findings from underneath martian surface Pin
Kent Sharkey24-Feb-20 10:15
staffKent Sharkey24-Feb-20 10:15 
GeneralRe: NASA reveals ‘really exciting’ first findings from underneath martian surface Pin
Mark_Wallace24-Feb-20 18:38
MemberMark_Wallace24-Feb-20 18:38 
NewsC# 8 asynchronous streams Pin
Kent Sharkey24-Feb-20 8:15
staffKent Sharkey24-Feb-20 8:15 
GeneralRe: C# 8 asynchronous streams Pin
virang_2124-Feb-20 10:51
Membervirang_2124-Feb-20 10:51 
NewsPhysics undergrads crunched numbers for Star Trek’s tribble problem Pin
Kent Sharkey24-Feb-20 7:45
staffKent Sharkey24-Feb-20 7:45 
GeneralRe: Physics undergrads crunched numbers for Star Trek’s tribble problem Pin
Mark_Wallace24-Feb-20 18:40
MemberMark_Wallace24-Feb-20 18:40 
GeneralRe: Physics undergrads crunched numbers for Star Trek’s tribble problem Pin
enhzflep25-Feb-20 12:29
Memberenhzflep25-Feb-20 12:29 
News5 arguments to make managers care about technical debt Pin
Kent Sharkey24-Feb-20 7:45
staffKent Sharkey24-Feb-20 7:45 
GeneralRe: 5 arguments to make managers care about technical debt Pin
Mark_Wallace24-Feb-20 18:53
MemberMark_Wallace24-Feb-20 18:53 
GeneralRe: 5 arguments to make managers care about technical debt Pin
Greg Utas25-Feb-20 5:51
professionalGreg Utas25-Feb-20 5:51 
GeneralRe: 5 arguments to make managers care about technical debt Pin
Mark_Wallace25-Feb-20 6:32
MemberMark_Wallace25-Feb-20 6:32 
GeneralRe: 5 arguments to make managers care about technical debt Pin
Nelek25-Feb-20 8:42
protectorNelek25-Feb-20 8:42 
GeneralRe: 5 arguments to make managers care about technical debt Pin
Joe Woodbury25-Feb-20 14:00
professionalJoe Woodbury25-Feb-20 14:00 
NewsThe myth of the T-shaped developer Pin
Kent Sharkey24-Feb-20 7:30
staffKent Sharkey24-Feb-20 7:30 
GeneralRe: The myth of the T-shaped developer Pin
Mark_Wallace24-Feb-20 19:02
MemberMark_Wallace24-Feb-20 19:02 
NewsPrivacy concerns raised over new Google Chrome feature Pin
Kent Sharkey24-Feb-20 7:30
staffKent Sharkey24-Feb-20 7:30 

General General    News News    Suggestion Suggestion    Question Question    Bug Bug    Answer Answer    Joke Joke    Praise Praise    Rant Rant    Admin Admin   

Use Ctrl+Left/Right to switch messages, Ctrl+Up/Down to switch threads, Ctrl+Shift+Left/Right to switch pages.