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email providers and the likes to the same thing, I also always wonder why giving more information is considered more secure. (and since no one ever convinced me, I never do  )
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Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd.
It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway.
So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to.
If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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You may translate it first...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Yes.
But be careful that you don't get only we pedants.
modified 14-Jan-16 18:35pm.
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Chris Maunder wrote: normal people (i.e. us)
sadly, I think
a) most of the 'marketing' is targeted at 'normal' (whatever that is) people
b) developers != 'normal' - not just 'intelligence', but the way we see things - a whole host of things
I think we are 'ab-normal' in a lot of things, compared to an 'average' population - and we are not who
Chris Maunder wrote: extremely Large Company
is targeting
'g'
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Chris Maunder wrote: A lovely, intelligent, witty person
Probably from marketing or sales or worse an evangelist! These people live on a different planet, not the different one developers live on so "getting" developers is extremely unlikely.
Chris Maunder wrote: logical way that normal people (i.e. us)
Hahahahahah hick, thank you I needed a good laugh this morning, made my Friday start most enjoyable.
I still think you would be replacing one set of buzzwords (marketing) with our set of buzzwords, in which case marketing would not understand what they are saying... oh wait!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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I do them every now and again; can be interesting/fun.
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Chris Maunder wrote: we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to
This is what happens in the Lounge every single day. Apart from sane, sensible and logical bits.
veni bibi saltavi
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Depends on the purpose of the focus group.
Remember:Henry Ford said: If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses
Steve Jobs Said: It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.
But if you just want feedback on ads I'd say go for it.
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Jörgen Andersson wrote: A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.
As much as it pains me to somewhat agree with Steve Jobs (I met him once in '79 and concluded he was an a**hole), my experience has been they don't know what you can do.
After several iterative changes, I've asked, "Why didn't you ask for that to begin with?" And invariably the response is, "I didn't know if you could do that."
Like it would never occur to me to say, "That's not possible."
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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I think to try and render who "we" are from "our" response to some package-of-marketing-hype would be like trying to render what race-horses are by having a panel of jockeys discuss race-horse poop.
cheers, Bill
«Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.» Benjamin Franklin
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Software Zen: delete this;
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I used to say (as a sort of joke): "I'm normal, it's everyone else that isn't"
Lately when I say it it's more of a truth than a joke, most articles, documentation, adds, ... (not written by/for developers) that I'v read the past year, have so many logical errors in it, or just don't make any sense, that I'v started to question humanity's sanity.
So yeah a group like that could be handy, only problem is we are all (I think) programmers so wouldn't we all be sitting (virtually) around scratching our head in disbelieve and confusion?
Tom
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Tom Deketelaere wrote: so wouldn't we all be sitting (virtually) around scratching our head in disbelieve and confusion?
And you don't see the fun in that?
cheers
Chris Maunder
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O definitely, I just thought you wanted a serious group to help out
Either way, sign me up (no idea if I'll be able to help with the serious part but...)
Tom
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Tom Deketelaere wrote: "I'm normal, it's everyone else that isn't"
For me it was..
"I'm not a genius, It's just the rest of you are stupid."
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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Oh come on! I've already got glasses for walking around, another set for reading, and a third for the computer - and you want a different focus now? 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Ha! Me too, I am near sighted but keep a 30 year old pair of glasses which are no longer good for distance but get me right to the computer screen.
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I'm trying to think of a metaphor that mixes "herding cats" and "chum in the water"... I got nothing.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Haha! It could be quite entertaining to translate some of the bizarre stuff that comes out of marketing into something that developers could actually relate to.
I can;t remember who said it, but someone once told me (or it might have been a talk somewhere, so it wasn't to me personally) that computers don't work like the human brain and programmers must adapt their thinking to become more like that of a computer in order to understand and solve programming problems, although we can never quite achieve that aim; in the end it means we neither think like the majority population, nor like the computers to which we are enslaved. Ends up just totally mangling the ol'noggin. 
Er, I can't think of a funny signature right now.
How about a good fart to break the silence?
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I'm interested in this. As someone who wears multiple hats at my job I often have to change my communication level depending upon to whom I'm talking to. If I'm talking to my boss, make it very general and put it on non computer terms. If I'm talking to the mechanical engineer that I work closely with, it's often that we say the same thing, but how we word it or approach it is different so it's often a challenge to get on the same page. If I'm talking to my users on the shop floor, it's mostly just cuss words and crude jokes about how much something sucks. From that I have to glean useful information on what needs to be changed.
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I'd join up for the fun of it 
If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. — Lyall Watson
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Will we be using waterfall, incremental, iterative or agile?
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Chris Maunder wrote: what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point
First off, what makes you think it misses the point?
You can be sure those marketing folks already spent a lot of time on that message, making sure it conveyed the important information to the entire audience they were targeting, without offending any of them. In other words, they wouldn't have put that piece of marketing out unless they were very convinced it was already right.
Now you come along, someone who probably doesn't represent the entire audience they are targeting, and pronounces that its wrong. Worse, you want to start a conversation with them from the point of "here's how its wrong, and here's how we can make it better". Flip this around, if they came to you and pronounced your coding wrong, and then wanted to start a conversation with you to tell you how to make it better, would you even listen to them?
A better way to start this might be to understand who all they're targeting and why they think there message was right. Once you can see things from their side, then you'll be in a position to start that conversation, assuming its even still needed.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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patbob wrote: You can be sure those marketing folks already spent a lot of time on that message, making sure it conveyed the important information to the entire audience they were targeting
I beg to differ.
I'm not being facetious, but I work with a lot of marketing departments and (at least in the IT space) there's a hell of a lot of misunderstanding of what the developer audience is. Marketing department tell me flat out that they don't "get" developers.
patbob wrote: Now you come along, someone who probably doesn't represent the entire audience they are targeting, and pronounces that its wrong
...and so me putting together a bunch of people to get a more balanced view and provide feedback from a larger cross section is wrong?
cheers
Chris Maunder
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