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I agree on 'efficiency' - what data structure to use where, knowing its 'general' characteristics with respect to lookups, traversals etc - Im just not how to express the relevant characteristics - I guess thats why Big O is important - it just seems pretty 'dry' as a topic
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When I was in University I took a few Electrical Engineering courses (counted for credit towards CS degree). ELEC 256 was all about basic circuit design, using standard gates (AND, NOR, etc.). Beyond the fact it was a lot of fun, it taught me a lot about basic logic theory, and ways to optimize logic circuits (simplifying circuits through Venn diagrams and such).
Since that time, I find I still apply those same techniques when programming, for example simplifying a complex set of logical conditions into a much smaller and simpler set of conditions.
Do such things get taught anymore in schools? Especially tech schools (as opposed to University or College), where there might be less emphasis on topics and Logic Design, Linear Algebra and Calculus, etc.?
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I was required to take an EE course for my degree, very similar to what you mentioned. By that time I had already taken my general Logic course and understood the theory but not how to optimize the paths.
Complete agree with you about still applying those techniques on the job. The better I can filter down the initial dataset, the better the server handles that complex logic, the less data transfer back and forth and faster response times. At least most of the time.
The answer to your question is "It depends", a friend of mine who attended the same Uni and went after a Management of Information Systems degree instead of a Computer Science degree did not have to take the Logic, Calculus, and other theory classes. He got a BB, I got a BS. He learned how to make a program run but he did not learn how to make it run well. He is really good at Copy/Paste.
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I agree - this seems to be a bit of a lost art.
I've noticed many new software engineers focused on tools as opposed to understanding what really goes on, so when they run into a problem they often run to me to help them. I think this is part of the "coding is easy" mindset that so many of them have.
It takes a lot of practice to debug very well. Learning the basics is relatively easy.
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."
-- Marcus Brigstocke, British Comedian
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its a great discussion - so what do 'we' ie 'we as a collective group of (cough) more senior programmers/... do about it ?
do we collaborate on an article series ?
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I learnt debugging back in the early 80s for R/Basic, an interpretive language from an OS called Pick.
There was no such thing as an IDE back then, pretty much a suck-it-and-see approach.
That's where I also learned that what I really did was 85% plan, 5% code and 10% debug.
I also learnt that I could move those goalposts to as much as 93% plan, 5% code and 2% debug.
Debug back then was embedding print and input statements to step through the code throwing the values of variables to my screen (or lineprinter) as I went.
Now, with all the wondrous tools I am probably doing 45% plan 10% code and 45% debug because the tools have made it easy. I think they try and rephrase what I do as 'Agile'.
I simply call it lazy (and, yes, I know that infers I am lazy, lets remove the inference. I am http://codeproject.cachefly.net/script/Forums/Images/smiley_wink.gif )
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not sure if on same line of QA that your talking about, however one team member that I am trying to 'train', mostly is an issue with getting them to understand what the actual Issue is and see past the symptoms, and fix the issue at root (if possible)
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I can only speak for myself. I never really learned debugging, I just knew that debugging is that thing that pops up when you press "Go" in your IDE. This was my starting point.
Now, I don't want to miss my debugger. I've learned everything on the go, I've learned how to watch values, set breaking points, watch memory (those pesky C coders in my team hate symbolic debugging and love calculating pointers instead of using them as references).
I will never ever touch a development environment without a debugger again. Except Arduino, but this I do as a hobby, not during work. Debugging is, I think, never obsolete. All documentation out there won't help jack if my code misbehaves.
As for what to do for them, well, if you enconuter a question answerable by debugging, don't give the man the fish, teach the man how to fish. That is, don't answer the question right away, but write a longer post about how to find it yourself. This isn't easy, first it takes much longer, second it will be shot down by people who just love giving hungry fish instead of teaching them to fish. But hey, if someone wants to learn, then he will read!
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Who's going this Friday? Let's see if you're a true fan:
http://dotnetify.net/trivia
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What a rubbish site.
Wait.
Wait.
Wait some more.
Question appears.
Click on right answer.
Nothing happens/
Twiddle thumbs for 29 seconds until timer runs out.
Close browser page...
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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OriginalGriff wrote: What a rubbish site.
I didn't think it was that good.
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I was trying to keep it KSS... 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Wow, plenty of jaded replies - my fault, I guess, for whipping out a few hours of fan work to master developers here; but point taken, I'll 'agile' your 'user voice' and shorten the timer 
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Why have the timer, except for a "Out-of-time!" reminder?
If I select an answer, I want feedback immediately - not half a minute later.
So when I get to the site, get that question up quickly.
When I press the button respond immediately: right, wrong, or "are you sure?" and get ready to move on to the next.
If this site took thirty seconds to respond to anything you did, you wouldn't visit it again, right? So why make yours move like a stunned slug on Mogadon deliberately?
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Took me a while for me to get that 'mogadon' bit - not really old enough to know my pharmaceuticals...
Yup, u're absolutely right - but what if I told you when > 1 people on the site, u could see how the others choose till countdown ends; would it change ur opinion, just a tiny bit? 
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Dunno - maybe.
But you'd need to make that clear somehow: without knowing that, then when you're the only person there it's not a "game" you'd want to complete, or come back to.
Forget how "clever" you've been, and try it from an "idiot user" POV, as if you've just come to it for the first time. It's not exciting, or fresh - just slow... 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Obviously the developper discovered countdowns and wanted to give them a try...
I never finish anyth
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I don't need to go, I'm there already. You were talking about Devon, right?
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Saw SW Christmas paper, Mac and Cheese, the only thing I haven't seen is a light Saber Sausage.
After seeing the previews, I have little interest. I think it will be over the top.
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http://www.twogag.com/comics/2015-12-11-TGAG_629_Pay_The_Piper.jpg[^]
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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LOL[^]
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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http://cube-drone.com/comics/c/its-grrreat[^]
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack.
--Winston Churchill
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I pity the tiger that have to eat some of my co-workers...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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