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Careful now. Most of the things they can't handle are the side effects of having been British colonies. Centuries of independence have not even helped very much. The only thing they were spared was not having to drive on the weirder side of the road.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
From what I hear of the behavior (behaviour, to them) English school boys, it would be amazing if there were only three-per-show equivalent in the countryside. Or at the least, they'd pluck the limbs off the torsos.
I agree the Europeans are arrogant, but us British?
In my experience (and at 69 I have quite a lot it) the British are, as a rule, in general (there are exceptions to every rule), not only the most arrogant, but also the most pompous people of any nationality.
Just take the whole "s" versus "z" issue as an example.
I guess you have not travelled very much. I have travelled, worked, and lived in most European countries, the Middle East and North America, and am also slightly older than you.
My original comment was meant as a joke, hence the smiley. but seriously, I have found that my experience of life has taught me never to judge a nation on the evidence of one or two individuals, whether good or bad.
I guess you have only met a few actual British people, and have judged an entire nation on those few meetings. I could make exactly the same claim against Americans from one or two I have met. However, I have also met some extremely nice Americans, and Germans, French, Norwegians, Turks, Kuwaitis, South Africans etc.
With apologies to all the other countries I have visited but not mentioned.
Sorry to disappoint you. I have travelled widely, all over the world. My wife is an "Anglophile" of the first order and magnitude. I have met "Brits" in London, Bermuda, and Hong Kong and the United States. I brought in New Year 1970 getting drunk in Hong Kong with British soldiers (and yes they drank me under the table, and out the door). They were the exceptions to the rule which I mentioned earlier.
While my comments were partially "Tongue in cheek" and meant to get a rise out of you, which they apparently did, (did I mention I am 1/2 Irish? ), I assure you there is a very large nugget of truth in them. And I stand firmly by my earlier comments.
The fact that you replied by lecturing me about judging a nationality based on an assumption that I had not met many British people, just tends to prove my remarks about arrogance and pomposity.
I am sure we could become great friends, given the chance. I sincerely apologize for any hurt feelings I may have caused you. Why, I have had Scotties and Westies as pets for 40 years, or so!
BTW: I openly admit to being quite arrogant and pompous myself. In fact I am rather proud of it. In any event, Us old guys (Are you really older than me? I thought I was the only one still working in the business at my age) should stick together, not argue. There IS still that Irish, English thing, I guess....
Well Toodles for now.....
It's a random chance universe and we are all just riding waves of probability...
I certainly don't recognize what you are referring to, arguing in favor of yyyymmdd sort of as opposed to some "Eurogance". ISO 8601 has been adopted in Europe to a much higher degree than in the US, many years ago.
Obviously, thirty years ago (when ISO 8601 was first published) there were other ways of writing dates. Some schemes were integrated in formal systems, such as the Norwegian "fødseslsnummer" (birth number, a rough equivalent to the social security number in the USA) where the person's ddmmyy birth date make up 6 of the 11 digits. When ISO 8601 was introduced, this 20+ year old scheme was not changed, and still remains. But for the great majority of new schemes established after 1988, the yyyy-mm-dd (with the hyphens, according to the international standard) format is used. Obviously, ISO 8601 was not out of the blue, either: The 8601 format was well known even before 1988.
In informal contexts and particularly orally, other schemes (such as "thirteenth of June") is still in use. In formal contexts, ISO 8601 has a very strong position (unless old conventions must be followed, such as the fødselsnummer).
Note that when Europeans do 8601, they do 8601: With the hyphens. Not as an 8-digit string. Not with slashes, but according to the international standard.
Worthless subjective conjecture - since I see Euro-dates always as DD-MM-YYYY on, for example, broadcast media (EuroNews, and others) - what you say is non-sense, or as I prefer to put it, yet another example of Eurogance.
Member 7989122 wrote:
Note that when Europeans do 8601, they do 8601: With the hyphens.
More Eurogance. If one does ISO 8601 it follows such standards and not others. Otherwise, it doesn't follow the standards.
As for yyyy/mm/dd: I've never seen it in the US. It MUST be a European thing. (did you know we don't all wear stetsons and string ties?)
Look at the phraseology of your post - how you attempt to make the European usage better with vague claims. Always with the implication that you must be doing it better than the US. A clear sign of the psychological impotence of your position and the progenitor of Eurogance.
I have lived long enough to see ISO 8601 replacing older schemes in lots of areas.
I have even seen old "Imperial" units being replaced with metric units. (When I was a boy, we counted eggs by the score, and my birth certificate states my birth weight in pounds.)
If you come in to take a snapshot right now, you don't see the direction in which things are moving. Especially if you have the attitude that "The European way is so-and-so", you can find evidence for that, without knowing what is bound by legacy and which is the preferred way when establishing something new.
Furthermore, it seems like you fail to distinguish between informal speech, informal text, and formal, "technical" uses. Like, you may hear a European carpenter refer to a two-by-four in speech, but in all papers, it says 48 by 98 mm (it isn't even two and four times 25.5 mm!). He may refer to his ruler as his "inch-rod", even though the inch marks dissapeared a generation ago. All time-of-day values, e.g. in train/boat/plane schedules are given in 24h format, yet lots of people use 12h format in informal speech: "Meet me around seven, OK?"
Europe has largely accepted both the metric system, 24h times, and ISO 8601 format for all formal use. Obviously, in informal contexts, old conventions will not die out overnight, like references to Imperial units are informally used a hundred years after they were abandoned. Yet everybody knows that the unambiguous, formal formats, whether 24h, metric or yyyy-mm-dd is expected in reports, orders, schedules, ... We have no objections to them; we do not fight them. You introduce yourself as "John Doe", but accept that in registries, you are known as "Doe, John". When asked when you were born, you reply "Fourth of July in 1976", but when filling in a form, you have no objections to the "1976-07-04" format.
I have not seen any similar movement in the US culture, neither towards metric units, 24h clock nor ISO 8601 dates. To the contrary: You regularly see/hear people turning their back to the metric and international formats, with a rejecting "But why??, often with several arguments to support the old US way. The armed forces are fond of 24h clock, but the civil society still clings to AM/PM. To Imperial units. To June, 13th, 2018.
And you are right: Slashes are not uses with yyyymmdd, but with mmddyy: 6/13/18 (or mmddyyyy: 6/13/2018), That is in the US. Some other English-speaking countries do it in another order. (Date and time notation in the United States[^]
The website reported a fatal error when I posted the above message, and the message didn't show up when CP again responded. So I wrote the answer below. After posting that reply, the first one popped up. Pick your choice in which one you will read
Europeans carry lots of legacy. Norway went metric 143 years ago; still carpenters may refer to a two-by-four. But they know that it is not two by four inches, but 48 by 98 mm. Their yardstick (or inchstick, in Norwegian lore) lost the inch markings a generation ago, but the name of the tool remains. You introduce yourself as "John Doe", knowing that in formal registers you are listed as "Doe, John". You say "Meet me around seven", well knowing that in your calender, you write the appointment as 19:00. When asked about your birthdate, you may answer "seventeenth of May, 1976", but when filling in a registration form, 1976-05-17 is usually the expected format.
Old traditions survive in informal context, some times for generations after new forms have completely taken over in formal contexts. I am old enough to see the last remains of Imperial units disappearing, 24h clock time becoming more dominant, and: A rapid growth in the use of ISO 8601 formats.
The important thing is not that people use a variety of old formats in informal speech and text, but the general acceptance of both metric units, 24h clock and ISO 8601 formats in formal contexts. Noone rises an eyebrow at any of these: They are logical, unambiguous, standard. They are welcomed.
That is definitely not my impression of, say, the US civil population. The armed forces have accepted 24h clock, and to some degree metric units, but civil USAnians tend to kick and scream to the slightest hint about abolishing Imperial units, am/pm or the June 13, 2018 format. It is a repeat of the old "The customer can get the T-Ford in any color he wants, if he wants it in black". A standard date format would be welcomed by most Americans, provided it conincides with the format they have always used. If there is any movement towards ISO 8601 in the USA, or the metric system, or 24h clock (which is implied by ISO 8601), it certainly hasn't reached the news.
Obviously, old forms will be used informally in the USA if ISO 8601, metric units etc. are introduced in all formal contexts, just like in Europe. I very rarely, if ever, meet USAnians who say "That's fine with me", but I have met quite a few giving me a stream of arguments why changing anything at all would be a very, very bad idea, even in formal contexts. Europe wants it, USA does not want it, even if "allowed" to use the old formats in informal speech and texts.
If you think that the civil society in the USA is ready to embrace ISO 8601 and its 24h clock, and maybe metric units as well, I am curious to see clear evidence of this.
(You are of course right that yyyy/mm/dd is not used in the USA, but mm/dd/yy or mm/dd/yyyy certainly is - Date and time notation in the United States. Some other countries using slashes put the units in another order; you must know the origin of the date to interpret it.)
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