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In case I gave a bad impression, I was trying to put forth that it's not really 'free choice'.
Perverted, perhaps, by modern (and ever changing) "morals", "beauty", and the ever-famous "look what I can see!". Our breeding instincts have been maligned, and as a consequence, targets of perversion. Consider that only humans feel the need to hide while mating, creating the later 'perversion' of exhibitionism.
What should be a universal source of joy.
The problem is not the instincts, but us.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: In case I gave a bad impression,
Not to worry, you have never made an impression on me.
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Evolution has built this stuff in for the purpose of breeding. Forget about what's fashionable. A male would look for 'substantial' breasts as it implies food for the newborns
Not me. I prefer women with the ability to walk upright, as it implies at least some intelligence. 
W∴ Balboos wrote: Not knowing quite what's attractive in males, I would hypothesize...
That's simple. It's the thickness of your wallet and your social status. Appearance and even your body odor are secondary two these two perfumes. Lose them and you are instantly as attractive as a monkey, appearance again totally irrelevant.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Really - you begged for this reply!
CodeWraith wrote: Not me. I prefer women with the ability to walk upright,
Implying you'll take the others as availability dictates.
Also, implies, having a preference, that you've tried both variants.*
* Are you absolutely sure both variants were female homo sapiens? Do neighborhood pets give you a wide berth, lately?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Are you absolutely sure both variants were female homo sapiens? Do neighborhood pets give you a wide berth, lately?
I'm not from Wales.
W∴ Balboos wrote: Implying you'll take the others as availability dictates.
Only if you assume that this is the only criterium, which it is not, and the empty set is not a valid solution.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Certainly a man with his proverbial feces together is attractive, but is attractive enough to cancel BO? Not to me.
It's just what I find attractive in a man generally starts behind the eyes.
But that doesn't mean I like a man to stink. In fact scent and touch are probably as important to me as visual cues are to the typical man. A byproduct of my brand of gayness i think.
I have physical preferences sure. I like hairy guys, and guys that are taller than me. But those things are secondary.
I think most straight men are really visual when it comes to what attracts them - maybe even primarily, although scent can elicit powerful responses in any animal, even us, generally.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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honey the monster, codewitch wrote: I think most straight men are really visual when it comes to what attracts them
If by visual you mean the eyes: oh yes !
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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This is so straight!
Married to a lovely woman. Have two beautiful daughters. Works as a SD.
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The cruelty of denying someone a life-partner; condemning them to loneliness; is unthinkable.
That being said, I am disregarding social pressures and politics. We, like all other creatures that require male+female to reproduce, have evolved the overwhelming need to reproduce effectively. this as an imperative (viz-a-viz, extinction). Thus, it makes sense in evolutionary terms to be attracted to characteristics that optimize breeding success. Whether one casts this as 'so straight', 'mainstream', or whatever is irrelevant: nature doesn't really give a damn. If I recall correctly, the part of the brain wherein lies one's libido is only less carefully protected, by location, then that part which tell your lungs to breathe and heart to beat. Accept your animal self and be liberated from sociopolitical tyranny. Howl at the full moon and be free.
Here's further grist for your mill: attraction for an 'exotic' other is quite common. Genetic advantages to this are obvious (dilute those nasty recessive genes!).
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: this stuff...
To what "stuff" do you refer?
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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All the varieties of 'stuff' that attract our attention, most specifically, at a primal breeding level.
Note that there are variations in this 'stuff' as to extent and order of dominance - which I would suppose enhances a combination of genetic variations and "someone for everyone".
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: A male would look for 'substantial' breasts
I really don't like big boobs.
They're fine when covered with clothing and supported by metal wiring harnesses, but seeing a beautiful lady laying down with one boob under her armpit and the other over her shoulder is not something that pushes my buttons.
Obligatory song (youtube)[^]
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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You will find that there's some guy(s) somewhere that think of your imagery as sexy.
Really, we're all our own Poppa-Bear on this: some are too large; some or too small; and some are just right.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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real problem is if you do something all day as a job, it's often the last thing you want to do when you get home.
same concept as many auto mechanics that drive the crappiest cars, known house builders that live in houses way beyond renovatible, chefs that wouldn't boil an egg at home....
but not always the case,
there are some whose hobby is/seems 'close' to their job, another mechanic I knew was big time into drag racing (his daily drive was a heap of crap but he had a shed full of real nice racers), builders that purposely buy run down properties to do up and flip...
... but asking them about it find out the real plan is nearly always to make enough on the hobby to ditch the job.
likewise contracting is another way out:
- if the job sounds like crap don't take it - no need to re-train (aka hit the web and self-train) for something you have zero interest in).
- contract says do X, so when signed X is all you have to do. no much less worries the "boss" will come down and shift you [temporary or even worse permanently] from X [something you don't mind] onto some other crap Y which you really have zero interest in doing (and if they insist on Y with contract you have much stronger option to tell them to get stuffed and negotiate a settlement rather then quit with empty pockets.)
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honey the monster, codewitch wrote: I still love the craft, just not the job.
So, what's the problem
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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honey the monster, codewitch wrote: if you do what you love for long enough, you'll no longer love what you do.
That's the risk with making a career out of a hobby.
I was okay with maybe the first two decades of working in the field. Then it's started to look more and more like "a job". Eventually I lost interest in working on my own little pet projects during evenings and weekends - it used to be that I could hardly wait until I was done with my workday to immediately get back into my own code, and my weekends were pretty much all dedicated to it. Now it can take me 6 months of trying to convince myself to fix even the smallest bugs.
But then, it's not necessarily that I don't like it anymore - rather, after my workday, I just feel exhausted and don't have the energy anymore to dive into anything new.
Age and getting out of shape also aren't helping.
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I can relate to that, and also I think I was able to treat my code more like an artist would and less like a functionary would when I wasn't doing it for money.
I engaged a whole different part of my brain i only got to employ occasionally at work.
But that also made coding a deeply personal, even emotional experience for me, and it's hard to just "give it away" to someone else. Money hardly seems adequate compensation for delivering pieces of myself for someone to package and sell.
But maybe I'm just overly attached.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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So what's the choice? To code as a job or to ditch the job and code as a hobby?
What if the hobby grows to become the job?
What if it's not the job but the tasks within the job that suck? Maybe a different job? Different group or environment or technology or just a different challenge?
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote: So what's the choice? To code as a job or to ditch the job and code as a hobby?
Pretty much, at least for me.
Chris Maunder wrote: What if the hobby grows to become the job?
That's how I wound up in the field in the first place. =)
Chris Maunder wrote: What if it's not the job but the tasks within the job that suck? Maybe a different job? Different group or environment or technology or just a different challenge?
A good question. For me the answer came by way of experience. I had done a lot of different kinds of work and I found the kind of work I used to enjoy, I didn't anymore. I tried after that to go 100% telecommute (change of pace and environment) and worked in a few different areas.
It wasn't really the technology. I replied somewhere else on this thread that part of it was the creative process for me is very emotional, personal, and artistic, so it's hard I think, for me to keep selling off pieces of myself, especially when it's being used for things that are well, banal.
I've explained the concept to artist friends of mine and they get it. With other people it has been hit or miss. My work is very personal to me. It's part of me.
I don't know if that's weird to look at software that way - at least at that level - but there it is. That's a big part i think of the reason I don't do it anymore for money - absent my madness, which is another issue
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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honey the monster, codewitch wrote: the creative process for me is very emotional, personal, and artistic
It's interesting you say that. I speak to a lot of companies about how to talk to software developers and at a basic level many have no idea what a developer looks like (not that there's "a" developer mould we all fit into). I talk a lot about how software development isn't a science, it's an art. We're often creating bespoke pieces of code just like old furniture makers would: each leg of the chair, each knob on the drawer is often custom made, hand sanded, polished up carefully and checked by eye-balling it.
We're a doomed profession, no doubt about it, but while it lasts it's one of the most creative outlets I can think of.
And yet no one else understands this.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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And we are truly the architects of our obsolescence. Just wait 'til I get some code generators wired up to these AI projects I see on here all the time. 
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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Please don't...
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Happened to me the other way round: I have somewhat always liked coding and, well, designing software, but it was a rather insignificant hobby until I landed my current programming job which made me enjoy DYI electronics for realsies. Now I'm an avid DYI hobbyist, thanks to my job.
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I’ve been retired now for almost 8 years. I spent the last 15+ years preceding my retirement as a consultant (contractor), working for banks, specializing in lending applications, commercial and mortgage lending. I spent the previous 30 years working for three major banks, specializing in lending applications. As a consultant, I was able to charge upwards of $175.00 per hour, always triple digit rates, expenses included. Most assignments lasted about 6 months. Although the longest was 2 ½ years. I’ve worked on every continent except Antarctica. I enjoyed the work and especially the money.
I mention the foregoing not to brag, but to point out that I didn’t have much variety in my specialty domain nor much choice in computer languages, yet made worthwhile career. Banks still have applications in COBOL, but many other ancillary applications in languages popular for the time: dBase, Clipper, and Visual Basic 6. I sold my time and my expertise, which many companies were willing to pay my rate and terms most often without question.
I studied changes in lending laws as well as kept up with computer languages popular for the time. Becoming the best at what I did made me known as an expert in my domain. Computer languages , most often weren’t even a consideration.
I enjoy programming, I’ve been studying C# and SQL Server. Being able to exploit software features wasn’t an objective, providing a solution to a problem was.
Early in my career my manager gave me the following advice: Work to live, not live to work. There’s just too much more in life than twiddling bits.
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