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I'll take an F.
I'd like to buy a vowel Pat, U!
I'd like to solve that Puzzle Pat...
Sorry, could NOT resist.
On the topic, I often throw a little slang around when I get bored with naming. An example would be a module I wrote to get domain whois data. I named the function "WhoIsDis" and another "WhoIsDat" for the string data received.
I've always preferred the underscore and all lowercase like my_web_app and my_sql_server...kind of a pain with the added shift, but eventually muscle memory kicks in. I know this is against sql server best practices, but I don't follow stupid rules.
Sander Rossel wrote:
like a SQL Server, which only allows lower characters.
I don't like underscores, they're kind of a throwback to the pre-2000's last resort
PascalCasing for classes, methods and properties in C# and SQL, camelCasing for variables and Java(Script), this-type-of-casing in HTML and CSS (and now Azure too I guess), this_kind_of_casing only when I have no other option or if that seems to be the standard in the project I'm working on and thiskindofcasing only for Azure storage accounts because that only allows lower case characters for some reason.
I also never use THIS_SORT_OF_CASING, constants just get regular PascalCasing.
And fields aren't prefixed with an _underscore.
Azure simply doesn't allow upper case characters in a SQL Server name (I'm talking about the SQL Server resource, not the actual database).
Only lower case characters, numbers and -'s, so sqlserver1 and sql-server1 are alright, but SqlServer is not
I typically use underscores as lead ins for private members in .NET classes and structs.
The reason being is because .NET/C# will not let you declare two members of the same name at different protection levels. Leading with an underscore prevents naming conflicts with protected, public or internal members used in derived classes.
Other than that, I feel the same way you do about them.
The other exception is when i'm working in an environment where everything is named like that. When in Rome...
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
i didn't think it even let you declare them. maybe i'm wrong. i'm just going by how they're implemented in the IL. The actual fieldnames are what are present in the metadata along with a simple flag that gives you the protection level, so there is no space for two items with the same name. I don't know if I've ever tried it in C#, but *if* it works, it would have to munge the name in IL, which can create a few problems regarding reflection and such but only in narrow circumstances.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
With private fields it's no a problem at all.
The base field simply isn't accessible from the derived class.
The two fields are simply "BaseClass.someField" and "DerivedClass.someField".
Things get different when you make the base class field public.
This prints "Witch someValue?" and "Base someValue.", pretty much as you'd expect.
Visual Studio only gives me a warning that someValue hides an inherited base member and that I should use the new keyword if hiding was intended.
Basically, both are treated as separate variables, and settings someValue will not set someValue in the base class, neither will setting base.someValue do anything for someValue.
Adding the new keyword gets rid of the warning, but doesn't seem to change anything.
To get back to your specific example, same thing.
new Derived().foo will point to the property, new Base().foo will point to the field (assuming you meant it to be public).
And you get a warning that foo hides an inherited member so you should add the new keyword.
For project names, I go with proper titles. NotEvenPascalCase, I use my spacebar. Which a Cygwin-wielding co-worker of mine seriously dislikes as spaces are apparently impossible to process with bash scripts. Well, sucks for him, sucks for bash, my PSH-scripts work with that stuff just fine. I dare to say that I don't shy away from non-ASCII characters either. We're in Germany here (so non-ASCII characters are a thing), we don't outsource work to other sites. Meaning that I keep all my stuff in Uuncode and don't bother about keeping it ASCII which again brings the blood of some co-workers to boil. Especially those who learned their craft half a century ago and couldn't be bothered keeping up to the field during all those years.
Wow, that seems very impractical...
I've also never seen it before.
The person who is going to have to maintain this after you will curse you.
And if your co-workers can't work with it either you should probably change your style.
Programming is a team sport and you can't just make up your own rules.
Even for me (a Dutch neighbor) typing öüï etc. takes two extra key strokes, and I can't do a ß at all.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
So I can't say I disagree with your coworkers and I learned programming this decade
Define "impractical". I claim that sticking to lessons half a century old is impractical. In certain cases, such as insistence on building linked lists by hand and freeing them, again by hand, in a different module instead of relying on C++'s standard containers, there's objectively measurable impact on productivity as this stuff is possible to get wrong thus development time gets wasted on fixing a homegrown solution instead of using a standard one.
You're right thought that IF I outsourced my work to, let's say, you, things would get very impractical very quick. But you've ignored the part of my post where I said explicitly that the code stays in Germany.
The only kind of people to curse me when I quit the company (which isn't going to happen anytime soon), are the kind of people stuck in the 60s. Or 80s, as for me. The kind of people who love short method names (because proccusl is totally more readable than ProcessCustomerList), who love doing stuff by themselves that the compiler does better (see example above) and sure, the kind of people who still live in the DOS age. Those will hate me. I live in a place with heating, water and electricity, shunning manual labor to have firewood in winter and having to go to a literal outhouse to take a dump (which is very fun in winter, trust me, I grew up in Russia and there's enough rural areas). It's time to accept that computing has moved on as well. It's time for my co-workers (well, I don't really care that much about them, but same goes for my successor) to stop living in the stone age.
Edit: Excuse me, I forgot to mention another important part to that discussion. German (or Dutch) umlauts aren't the only use for Unicode. Even if I was typing all my names in pure English, that wouldn't help with physical units. You see, you can stylize volume units as m^3 which is even somewhat wide'ish recognized, a m³ is way simpler and easier to understand. That ³, in case you wonder, isn't part of ASCII so it's either ANSI code pages (please don't get me started on this nightmare) or a Unicode literal. Well, git can deal with Unicode just fine, it doesn't know how to output it on it's CLI returning raw bytes but it can tuck away and retrieve UTF8 code files just fine. Of course I could refer this to some internationalizing framework (which I have and which again runs in Unicode), but m³ is the same all over the world, introducing a layer of indirection there is pointless. It should go without saying of course that the IDE and it's compiler understand UTF8 just fine as well. In fact, it was the IDE that I used to convert the whole solution to UTF8.
such as insistence on building linked lists by hand and freeing them, again by hand
That's just madness, unless you're studying linked lists.
Member 9167057 wrote:
the code stays in Germany
"That will never happen" - Some guy before it happened
It's the biggest lie we keep telling ourselves and a lie that has cost many a company a lot of time, effort and money.
You'll get a foreigner in the team, you decide to leave the company, you land in the hospital and someone needs to take over, management decides a team in India is cheaper... All stuff that could happen tomorrow (let's hope that hospital equipment won't crash because someone used non-ASCII characters ).
I'm thinking about tooling that can't process your project names.
They may be tools from the 80's, who knows, but you'll still have to work with them.
There's a difference between using proccusl (which is also just madness in this day and age) and using PröceßCüstømerLîst, at least the first can be processed by every human and program everywhere.
I think all of us here have stories about applications that crashed because a file wasn't ASCII or UTF-8 or even BOM or whatever.
The spaces are pretty annoying as well.
I once used spaces in a project name, but quickly switched back once I had to use double quotes in practically every program I used with that application (like Azure DevOps, CLI tools, etc.).
The real fun was in using it within another double quoted string, which forced me to use escaped double quoted strings, like cmd = "dotnet build "My project""... Ehhh...
I can only imagine the pain if that project name includes weird symbols as well, even if YOU can type them.
Anyway, if you dislike your team so much because they're stuck in the 70's and 80's then why don't you find another job?
I know plenty of places that aren't stuck in the past, but would make very short work of your naming conventions
Ok, I promise you to replace all umlauts with either their transcriptions (ü->ue) or all names with English when the code goes abroad. Since I'm not high at work, that's something I a) will know and b) will remember when the time comes. That said, I don't see it happening anytime soon. I won't get a foreigner to work on my team because my company doesn't grasp for foreigners because they're cheaper, my company goes for qualifications and, very important in R&D, the will to stay with the company and the product for a while. Unless it's a menial code monkey job, it takes ~2 years to grasp the concepts and become a productive member. You don't outsource to the cheapest for something that takes 2 years to fully get into. I claim that going for the cheapest is the stupidest idea there is anyway. Still, I promise you that I'll English'fy my code should the need arise.
With that out of the way, let's get to the other topics. Tooling that works with the project is a base requirement for, well, anything and it hurts me that you assume I see it differently. The thing is, my tools work with my projects just fine. Obviously, the IDE & compiler work. I said earlier that git works with that stuff as well (save for displaying bugs on the CLI I don't care about). What else is there… The file manager obviously works fine, console as well. I hardly do anything interactive in the console anyway, I write scripts to do repeating tasks and the scripts work. Quoting quotes in PowerShell is darn simple, at least as long as only 2 levels of quoting are involved. That, and I wouldn't hard-code "My project", it looks similar to "dotnet build %ProjectNameComingFromADefineOrMacroOrParameter" in my scripts. Hard-coding such stuff is a bad idea, with spaces or without. The moment you rename your project, you may have to adjust the name in several places.
As for crashes in your applications, code!=data. Data files, the ones that go out into the world (or return from the world), are a peculiar topic, one very different from what we're talking here. I mean, sure, it's an interesting topic, but I feel that you're including it here to remain right, not because it adds to the discussion at hand. But I have an anecdote myself about how not using Unicode causes odd issues. You may remember physical units from my previous post. Well, a ³ in a West-European code page (or Central European, I don't remember) looks rather differently from some East Asian codepage where my product is also run. That incident was in fact the trigger for me to work in Unicode.
As for other tools, I strongly disagree. If a tool is from the 90s, chances are, it's simply bad (i.e. security issues which no-one cared about in the 90s), incompatible with any modern environment or there's a better successor anyway. My point is, I've yet to see a tool which I need for which there's no replacement and which doesn't support Unicode. Or spaces, for that matter. Ok, git doesn't really, but it doesn't crash and doesn't corrupt anything either, so I'll go with "git just works".
As for customer-facing data, my 2 favorite exchange formats are Excel (for customer convenience) and ASCII text files with plain English for internal'ish stuff. I'd like to use XML for better structure, but it would be overkill for the data I'm packing.
The reason for me to stay is several. First, the issues I named, namely grown-ups stuck in the past, I don't really care about. It makes for a nice anecdote every now and then, but I don't work with them directly. They use my code sometimes, I never touch theirs. We're sub-teams. Or teams within a group. Second, the place is actually great to work at. Good flexible hours, good pay, cool colleagues to hang out with after hours (not the ones I was talking about earlier) and the company likes it's employees to stay for a while (beneficial for R&D, beneficial for sales) because, as I was saying, going for the cheapest option available is plain dumb, as a couple articles on TheDailyWTF can confirm. And I love doing what I'm doing. Including staying up-to-date with development of tools I'm using. I imagine wishing to hang myself when trying to do that in the web space but on desktop, the couple articles I read about news in C++, C# and Delphi are palpable, not too many, almost always substantial and holy hell do I look forward to C++'s modules (which sure as hell will piss off the past-stuck people).
Now that talk about outsourcing and code monkeys reminds me... Going for the cheapest for a pure code monkey job is of course a viable alternative. Not that code monkeys make sense in the first place, a couple of people knowing what they're doing produce better code, than a horde of code monkeys, but some of the co-workers stuck in the past used to degrade me to a code monkey when we were working closer together. Maybe there's a causal connection here which I don't see.
I won't get a foreigner to work on my team because my company doesn't grasp for foreigners because they're cheaper, my company goes for qualifications
You're a foreigner yourself to about 99% of the world population.
Foreigner != cheap and uncertified
And a lot of people still don't know that cheap usually isn't the best option either...
Anyway, you make all good points, and when working in your own language, which is very convenient for domain specific terms, I guess it's difficult if your language isn't ASCII.
I guess you're right on all accounts, but such pröject names still give me the shivers...
I'm pretty sure if I did it one tool or another would break and I'd be in for a world of pain, but I'm doing web dev so it'll break anyway
Now I see your problem with my non-English characters. Correct me if I'm wrong please. As far as I know, having your methods (on the server) called from clients all over the world isn't exactly uncommon making worldwide-compatible naming a hard requirement while in my case, it literally couldn't matter less as my customers get a compiled binary which, save for some places I've used RTTI, doesn't contain any names at all.
While the comic is great, I can imagine having the pretty much same problems. Windows is an interesting example of itself, it's desktop-only (let's stick with client Windows), but Microsoft has a plethora of compatibility shims because desktop apps written for version X rely on quirks of version X and break when facing version X+1.
The usual solution is to cleanly define the interface and simply not break it. The implementation can change, but who cares? Speaking from experience here, an externally-usable DLL is a part of my main product and I've changed it's guts several times in my time here, including one complete rewrite. Nobody cares because the outside stays the same.
Isn't it the same in the server space? Publish an API, publish a documentation and simply don't break the API thus having all clients using it by the book not breaking? I don't have that much experience there, what's preventing web APIs from staying stable once published?
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