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GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Member 79891228-Apr-20 6:27
MemberMember 79891228-Apr-20 6:27 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Member 79891228-Apr-20 6:27
MemberMember 79891228-Apr-20 6:27 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
bence9827-Apr-20 12:38
Memberbence9827-Apr-20 12:38 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Andrew Torrance10-Apr-20 0:38
MemberAndrew Torrance10-Apr-20 0:38 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Sander Rossel11-Apr-20 6:09
professionalSander Rossel11-Apr-20 6:09 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Kirk Wood11-Apr-20 4:48
MemberKirk Wood11-Apr-20 4:48 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Sander Rossel11-Apr-20 6:01
professionalSander Rossel11-Apr-20 6:01 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Member 79891228-Apr-20 1:11
MemberMember 79891228-Apr-20 1:11 
The best known container solution, Docker, is primarily suited for back end servers, command line interface. You may run a web server in a container, to get sort of a GUI interface, but at a performance, and with a functionality/flexibility far below what you would expect from a native GUI application.

Also, HTML specs are so fuzzy that we are still fighting with browser incompatibilities. Now that we no longer have IE6 as a scapegoat, noone wants to reveal that there are, and have always been, incompatibilities among the other browsers. (It seems to be much more proper to say "Can't you just tell your users to use Google Chrome?" than it was to say "Can't you just tell your users to use IE6?", even though the logic is the same.)

You can run an X.11 client in a Docker container, but X.11 servers (i.e. front ends - X.11 terminology is somewhat strange) are not very widespread nowadays, in particular in Windows environments. X.11 handles mouse/screen only; any other I/O requires a different model. Adapting a GUI application from almost any other framework to X.11 is likely to require a major rewrite.

Docker is essentially a *nix thing. The interface with the host is very much according to *nix structure and philosophy. There is a Windows Docker, but the MS guys had to give up mapping all Windows functions onto that *nix host interface, and made their own. But this host interface is way from stable, and is updated with every new Windows release, so every half year you have to rebuild all your Windows Docker images fit the new host OS version. Not much virtualization there... And even with that Windows specific host interface, you can only run CLI windows applications - no GUI. (Windows Docker can run Linux containers, though, but of course not the other way around: The Linux community won't touch the Windows variant with a ten foot pole.)

Even if you stick to Linux: Docker provides no virtualization of the CPU. The executable code is "bare", and run directly on the CPU. You can't run 64 bit code on a 32 bit CPU, or an ARM container on an Intel CPU.

A container is exactly identical every time it starts up. It has a file system, but any changes made during execution are temporary, disappearing when the container terminates. You cannot set preferences, maintain a list of last files processed etc. in the container; all data to modified permanently must be maintained outside the container, either by mapping a host directory at run time (which creates certain problems with OSes differing from one environment to the other), a database, or a file system external to the container but maintained by the Docker engine. You must adapt your application to this. E.g. if you keep user information in the Windows registry HKCU, you not only must move all of that in an external database, but you must provide some login or user identification mechanism: Unless instructed otherwise, a given Docker image always runs as a given user.

And so on. Simple Docker demos are simple to make. If you really believe that you have any sort of "virtualization", and try to make use of it, you will soon be out of luck. Docker provides a trapping of a number of system calls, and sets up memory management so that you cannot address anything outside the set of "layers" making up the container (plus making use of the bottom layer host interface) - that's all the "virtualization" it does. It sets up fences.

The major difference between JVM/dotNET and Docker is that Docker packs a stack of DLLs ("layers" i Docker lore) into one tight package, identified by a SHA256 checksum so nothing can be updated/changed, and no memory references whatsoever are permitted outside this package, neither to code nor data. JVM/dotNET allow late DLL binding with fuzzy versioning, and provides no simple-to-use way to pack DLLs together and bind them to one unique version (in the SHA256 sense) of all the other DLLs in the pack.

This packing of specific DLL version into one unit and prohibit all external references do have arguments going for it. But the way it is done, it has far too many limitations. As long as you are in a command line world, and all your tools are Linux based, you can work around the restrictions and limitations. For back end servers, it may be fine. You cannot move images among different hardware architectures. You can run Docker images of any color that you want, provided that you want it in black (Linux, that is). If you want any other color, then you are stuck.

If you develop Windows end user applications, Docker is certainly not for you. You will be forced into a command line Linux style world. You certainly do not gain any sort of flexibility or freedom from host restriction comparable to e.g. what VMware virtualization gives you.

There were rumors about significant updates to native Windows virtualization (Hyper-V) coming up for Windows 10X - I didn't get the details, but got the impression that it would be more lightweight. If anyone knows more about this, please provide links! I guess that if you want virtualization for Windows applications, this is a far more viable alternative than Docker.

Docker is the only container technology I have used (/fought with). Maybe there are others that are better suited, but today it sees as if most people consider containers and Docker to be more or less synonyms.
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Thornik9-Apr-20 2:34
MemberThornik9-Apr-20 2:34 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Andrew Torrance10-Apr-20 0:45
MemberAndrew Torrance10-Apr-20 0:45 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
PIEBALDconsult8-Apr-20 3:26
professionalPIEBALDconsult8-Apr-20 3:26 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Gary R. Wheeler8-Apr-20 3:56
MemberGary R. Wheeler8-Apr-20 3:56 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
PIEBALDconsult8-Apr-20 4:48
professionalPIEBALDconsult8-Apr-20 4:48 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Member 79891228-Apr-20 6:31
MemberMember 79891228-Apr-20 6:31 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Gary R. Wheeler8-Apr-20 11:45
MemberGary R. Wheeler8-Apr-20 11:45 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
PIEBALDconsult8-Apr-20 12:25
professionalPIEBALDconsult8-Apr-20 12:25 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Cp-Coder8-Apr-20 8:36
MemberCp-Coder8-Apr-20 8:36 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Andrew Torrance10-Apr-20 0:46
MemberAndrew Torrance10-Apr-20 0:46 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Gary R. Wheeler10-Apr-20 3:45
MemberGary R. Wheeler10-Apr-20 3:45 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Mike Winiberg8-Apr-20 22:37
professionalMike Winiberg8-Apr-20 22:37 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Andrew Torrance10-Apr-20 1:11
MemberAndrew Torrance10-Apr-20 1:11 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Thornik9-Apr-20 2:29
MemberThornik9-Apr-20 2:29 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Mark Smeltzer9-Apr-20 9:04
MemberMark Smeltzer9-Apr-20 9:04 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Andrew Torrance10-Apr-20 1:13
MemberAndrew Torrance10-Apr-20 1:13 
GeneralRe: Do containers mark the beginning of the end for VMS and possibly C# and Java ? Pin
Member 28960209-Apr-20 19:44
MemberMember 28960209-Apr-20 19:44 

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