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charlieg wrote: hey eddy, got any children? I've had a few. I have an issue with the government mandating vaccines that can kill my children.
Your children were vaccinated as babies, against smallpox and such. They live in a relative safe world thanks to vaccines existing. And no one complained when polio was wiped out, did they?
It shouldn't be optional, but mandatory.
charlieg wrote: Then why do I have to sign a legal waver accepting the fact the vaccine may have "side effects"?
Because any treatment carries risk. I been taking a lot of medication for years, and that has had some side effects. If my doctor could be held liable, he would stop doctoring. And that's not just so for treatment; even looking at the intestines carries a (small) risk.
There's more risk in taking pain medications; but that doesn't stop America from taking them en masse.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Disclaimer: Not wanting to convince you at all, just answering for the sick of the debate (not discussion)
Marc Clifton wrote:
1. No long term effects study (obviously.)
Usually vaccines don't have such long time effects, either it works or not, either it brings collateral damage or not, but if it does, it does it pretty soon.
Long term studies are usually needed because the studies are damend slow and it takes long time to get a decent tested-people base.
This is not the case as there have been a huge amount money getting flooded into the studies, what has accelerated the research a lot and there has been a lot of people for the tests in the pre-market phases, bringing the same numbers in a couple of weeks that would usually take years in other studies.
Marc Clifton wrote: 2. No data on how long the immunity lasts (because it's so new)
Agree on this. But... I think that even if it wasn't more than a year or two... it would still help a lot to slow down the ratios right now until there is something better.
Marc Clifton wrote: 3. It doesn't appear to prevent the spread of COVID, just the symptoms.
About the spread... I partially agree with you. But one of the most important aspects is that it helps reducing the severity if you get it.
Marc Clifton wrote: I do choose not to get the vaccine and I'll be damned if government or my neighbor has the authority to force me to.
And that's fine for me
Marc Clifton wrote: Now granted, I would never stop someone from getting the vaccine
The same as you should not be forced to get it.
Free will, my / your decission
M.D.V. 
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Nelek wrote: Free will, my / your decission
Nope.
This isn't capitalism, nor a choice. All must go.
And stop the whining about vaccines. Every kid is vaccinated in the modern world.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy, take it easy... I am not against vaccination.
But I can understand that some people don't want to be "forced" to do it.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
And stop the whining about vaccines.
Read better... I am not whining I am giving arguments for it.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
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Your opinion is not an argument. You acting as if there should be a choice, as if it a luxury to get vaccinated.
There cannot be a choice; if there is, the damn thing will be here to stay.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Your opinion is not an argument.
It is not my opinion, it is a fact right now.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: You acting as if there should be a choice, as if it a luxury to get vaccinated.
Because at this moment... it is.
You get called and told, you might get it and offer you some options to make an appointment. You have no possibility to get it when you want, so partially it is a luxus to get it. I will probably have to wait almost a year before I get even asked.
Additionally...
First, there is not enough to get all people done, so if there are people voluntarily rejecting it... it is a bless for other people because they will get it sooner.
Second, there is no official mandatory command to get it, only recommendations. And recommendations is something voluntary, if you like or not.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: There cannot be a choice;
but still there is.
If the governments start telling it is a must, then I will share your vehemence defending it. 
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
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Nelek wrote: It is not my opinion, it is a fact right now.
Your opinion is not a fact.
Nelek wrote: Because at this moment... it is.
You get called and told, you might get it and offer you some options to make an appointment. You have no possibility to get it when you want, so partially it is a luxus to get it. I will probably have to wait almost a year before I get even asked.
Yes; and won't stay so until there's enough vaccine.
Nelek wrote: but still there is.
If the governments start telling it is a must, then I will share your vehemence defending it.
You doubting that government will not make it mandatory? 
Even so, how can you be against, with our history? Why make it a "choice"?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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My opinion is my opinion.
The fact is that right now is a voluntary thing.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: You doubting that government will not make it mandatory?
they probably will, but right now... it is still a voluntary thing.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Even so, how can you be against...
I am not against, but I respect the current situation and the people that are not in the same opinion than me, as long as they keep respect to others. And Marc did show a lot more respect than many others on both sides of the coin (pro and anti vaccine). And if he doesn't want to get it... so it be. I have nothing to object. It still is an individual election.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: ... with our history? Why make it a "choice"?
And just because of our history I have said some times, that we will deserve what we will throw on us. Call it nuke-war, call it bio-war, call it nature catastrophe of epic dimension, call it medical advance going the wrong way, call it... whatever.
But we still have choices everyday... and without the ability or the opportunity of chosing things, we are even more doomed than with it.
If this ends with a population decimation and I am in it, well... I will accept it. The same as if I slip getting out of the shower and break my neck or whatever other silly accident that might kill me in every second of my life.
On the other side... if this ends in a population decimation, out planet will might get even profit of it and maybe future generations get better chances just because we had so many deaths right now...
We can never know.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
modified 1-Feb-21 10:57am.
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Nelek wrote: The fact is that right now is a voluntary thing.
As is education.
Nelek wrote: I am not against
You're advocating it as a choice.
Nelek wrote: But we still have choices everyday... and without the ability or the opportunity of chosing things, we are even more doomed than with it.
It was a good thing you had no choice over the polio virus.
This not about choices or democracy.
Nelek wrote: If this ends with a population decimation and I am in it, well... I will accept it. The same as if I slip getting out of the shower and break my neck or whatever other silly accident that might kill me in every second of my life.
Accepting a plague is hardly comparable to an accident.
Moreover; you a risc to anyone else, and knowingly.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy... we can continue the whole day with the same arguments.
I am not advocating it as a choice. It still s a frigging choice.
I already said, if it is done mandatory, then I will argue about getting the shot as vehement as you. But right now... if you want it or not, if you like it or not... it STILL is a choice.
I don't like it, but I respect it.
And you can say what you want, but you can't do anything about it being a choice and about having people that doesn't want to get it.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
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Nelek wrote: Eddy... we can continue the whole day with the same arguments.
You did not present any, only opinions.
Nelek wrote: And you can say what you want, but you can't do anything about it being a choice and about having people that doesn't want to get it.
Of course I can, and doing so. Petitioning my government to make it mandatory.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Of course I can, and doing so. Petitioning my government to make it mandatory.
then I take back my words on that sentence. Well done. That's the way.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
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Government never listens to normal folk, so no danger there.
There's more resistance to this vaccine than any other, for no reason outside Facebook and Twitter.
It has the same risc as a flu-shot, and yet "everyone" taking Oxy is arguing against it. With half America taking heroin, I wonder why that country afraid of a flu shot and needs their "choice". It's not a bloody election.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: There's more resistance to this vaccine than any other, for no reason
Actually, for the reason that this virus has not turned out to be nearly as bad as people claimed it would be at first. And then the CDC keeps flip flopping it's position on masks and how the thing spread. And now there are variants that the vaccine does not address. And the risk of any serious stuff happening for most people is so low. And the vaccine has not been time-tested and proven. That's quite a few valid reasons for not jumping to get in line to get a shot.
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20212 wrote: Actually, for the reason that this virus has not turned out to be nearly as bad as people claimed it would be at first.
But it is worse than many other people claim it to be to avoid complying.
20212 wrote: And then the CDC keeps flip flopping it's position on masks and how the thing spread.
Not defending them, but with new situations it is logical to keep correcting the output depending on new incoming data. It is the same as in every regulation process, the output depends on the current situation and the fluctuation of the input.
20212 wrote: And now there are variants that the vaccine does not address.
That's something that I was expecting to happen, if the virus started to mutate. I was kind of hoping he would not, but as he has started... then it is kind of logical that the vaccines might loose effectivity against the new variations.
As in the flu vaccine, we need one for each season.
20212 wrote: And the risk of any serious stuff happening for most people is so low.
Are you sure you are not Ryan?
Anyways... tell that to all the families that have lost people due to it.
I know already several families who have lost people due to it, mostly elders, ok. But not only, a guy that went to school with me (one year older than me) died and the kid (not sure about the age but not 18 yet) of a known person in my home town too.
I am happy that the real statistics are lower than expected at the very beginning (using the official numbers of JHU is a 2,16% right now) but to say "the risk is so low" I find it a bit out of place sorry. Consider you lucky if you leave in an area where the stats are so low that you think like that. Because it is not a nice situation.
20212 wrote: And the vaccine has not been time-tested and proven.
Vaccines usually don't need time, they need numbers. And (if the numbers are real) there have been more people for the pre-market tests in these studies in some weeks that other studies of pharmacs / medicines get in years.
20212 wrote: That's quite a few valid reasons for not jumping to get in line to get a shot.
Don't do it. As I told Eddy. Right now it still is voluntary, so everyone with their own decission.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote: but with new situations it is logical to keep correcting the output depending on new incoming data. It is the same as in every regulation process, the output depends on the current situation and the fluctuation of the input.
Exactly. I'm not mad at the process just pointing out why a person might not take it so serious.
Nelek wrote: a guy that went to school with me (one year older than me) died and the kid (not sure about the age but not 18 yet) of a known person in my home town too.
And I work with a guy in his 70s who got it and was back to work in a few days. I am not oblivious to people dying but it is not bad enough to warrant all the panic and fear that is going on.
I said this when it first started that on a scale of 1-10 pandemics, this thing is a 2 or 3. How will the world react when we have a 7 or higher pandemic? That is what concerns me. Things could be so much worse but people are acting like this is the worst it can get (equating no mask wearing to attempted murder? serious?)
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20212 wrote: How will the world react when we have a 7 or higher pandemic?
We will probably go to hell, the ones that survive the pandemic will probably start killing themselves...
I know it is the plot of some films, but I don't have enough faith in humanity to think it will go differently if it goes so far  
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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20212 wrote: Actually, for the reason that this virus has not turned out to be nearly as bad as people claimed it would be at first.
Actually, it much worse than they claimed. The flu doesn't mutate that much. I didn't understand why China took those measures at first, but it is starting to make sense.
20212 wrote: And now there are variants that the vaccine does not address.
You misinformed, the vaccine works against the current known mutations.
20212 wrote: And the vaccine has not been time-tested and proven
It doesn't need be? It is not a new substance, it is mRna and we know how that works? We know how that works, we don't need years of study for that. It's like claiming that any copy/paste in VS needs years of study. That's crazy talk.
Why we even talking about this?
20212 wrote: That's quite a few valid reasons for not jumping to get in line to get a shot.
No, no valid argument, only proves you failed history class. No other vaccine was opposed this much, for so little reason beyond twitter and facebook.
And again; as mankind, we defeated the polio virus. It was worse than corona, and it had a far bigger impact. And we defeated it with vaccines.
--edit
20212 wrote: And then the CDC keeps flip flopping it's position on masks
Same complaint here! Our equivalent, the RIVM, kept yelling for months in the media that there's no scientific proof that masks protect you. It's not there to protect you, but others, and any dimwit that sneezed while wearing a mask will confirm that.
As a nice sidenote; our government leaking personal data from everyone that took a Covid test.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: You misinformed, the vaccine works against the current known mutations.
And how do you know you are not misinformed?
The truth is neither you nor I are actually building or testing the vaccine so clearly your news source is different than mine. The difference between you and me is I can say that I might be wrong. It's possible. But you are clearly too certain that you are right which leaves no room for discussion.
Ta ta.
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20212 wrote: And how do you know you are not misinformed?
Science. You'll question anything, but science depends on measuring.
20212 wrote: he truth is neither you nor I are actually building or testing the vaccine so clearly your news source is different than mine.
You mean facebook?
20212 wrote: The difference between you and me is I can say that I might be wrong
Ehr.. you are. Obvious.
20212 wrote: But you are clearly too certain that you are right which leaves no room for discussion.
Correct. There's no discussion here.
I'm just telling you as it is. It is not something we vote over. Since when is medicine a democracy? It's just science, and you need not accept that, just as you need not accept reality. But we measure, and we prove.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: It's just science
Indeed it is. I'm sure the irony of you making that statement is lost on you.
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20212 wrote: Indeed it is. I'm sure the irony of you making that statement is lost on you.
Without it, I'd been dead twenty years ago.
CS, as in "computer science", depends on proof.
The vaccine is proven effective. There's no argument or discussion. Just those who seen history and those who seen facebook.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Marc Clifton wrote: 1. No long term effects study (obviously.)
It is not a new substance that we need to test for years. It's mRna, and we know how the body reacts and how it works.
Marc Clifton wrote: 2. No data on how long the immunity lasts (because it's so new)
For some diseases, a lifetime. Let's hope this one too; but with this rate of mutation, I'm more worried it will become the next flu. That would mean a new vaccine every year
Marc Clifton wrote: 3. It doesn't appear to prevent the spread of COVID, just the symptoms.
It's a vaccine; meaning it teaches your immune-system how the virus looks before you get infected. Yes, you can still get the virus and when you do, you can infect others. But you will not be as sick as without the vaccine, since your immune system is already prepared for it. So, during those sick days you stay home.
There's no 100% prevention. Take a flu shot, you can still get the flu. It doesn't prevent you from getting it. But if you do get it, the immune system is prepared and you're a lot less sick than without that shot.
Marc Clifton wrote: 4. Immunization with SARS coronavirus vaccines leads to pulmonary immunopathology on challenge with the SARS virus - PubMed[^] Granted, #2 is a small study published in 2012.
A study on mice. While we share a lot of DNA, we do look quite different from mice.
Marc Clifton wrote: An while I am not an anti-vaxxer
You present four arguments that a non-medic can disprove, to justify not taking the vaccine. That's an anti-vaxxer (who, ironically, has already been vaccinated against a lot of diseases).
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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The vaccine doesn't "cure" if you're already infected (and possibly asymptomatic).
And that's why you also keep wearing a mask even when vaccinated.
Masks; multi-purpose; not spreading and not catching.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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