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Mircea Puiu wrote: And the paper you are talking about is normally supposed to certify your knowledge in a specific area
See the text in bold 
Mircea Puiu wrote: No, the question is not stupid at all.
It is stupid just because if you'll take a look at the amount of Europeans who immigrated to the US you'll find out that there's hell lot many of 'em. And I mean the bright minds. I'll just provide an example from military industry. Sikorsky.
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Human stupidity is infinite.
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and what have those immigrants to the US to do with the question regarding the competition being stupid ?!
SkyWalker
-- modified at 8:49 Monday 12th December, 2005
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Maybe the fact that half of US citizens (ok, not half, exxagerating) are actually Europeans with US passports ?
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Human stupidity is infinite.
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People with US passport are Americans.
People with EU related passport are not.
The companies are competing against each other. And here you have to see the difference in management approaches.
By the way, have you ever worked in EU or in the US? That could give you a better perception of what I'm trying to say
SkyWalker
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Neither in EU (if you mean European Union) nor in US. I'm pretty much happy in my part of non-EU Europe which I hope won't be EUized for at least 10 years.
Oh and my main degree is in managment so I know the differences 
The thing is that US management is suitable for US companies and only them. Same goes to Japaneese managment. As for EU...well there's no such thing as Eropean managment because all EU countries are different. Try comparing Spain and Germany for example.
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Human stupidity is infinite.
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You are probably a very young manager, no offense
And believe me, I was speaking (in some ways) like you some 6 years ago.
Living in the middle of the problems means a lot!
Do not understand me in a wrong way. I am neither making loby for the EU, nor for the US.
Just curious Why are you saying: "I hope won't be EUized for at least 10 years" ?
SkyWalker
-- modified at 9:20 Monday 12th December, 2005
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Mircea Puiu wrote: You are probably a very young manager, no offense
No offence taken just because it is so
Mircea Puiu wrote: Living in the middle of the problems means a lot!
Completly agree.
Mircea Puiu wrote: Why are you saying: "I hope won't be EUized for at least 10 years" ?
Because I don't think my country is ready to become a equitable partner to EU, not a resource base or another market for EU products. Look at Poland. They strived for EU for so long and just as they've joined their agriculture turned to be in a deep ass. Also the level of actual income of a lot of people here is quite low. 10% of population hold 90% of money while the other 90% of population holds 10% of money
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Human stupidity is infinite.
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What would you say finding out that, actually, more than 75% of the population in (almost) any EU contry is not happy at all with being part of the EU? And they have their own reasons. But what to do now? Some minds wanted something and decided (long time ago) to build the EU. After a while, people found out that they were not actually knowing what was going on (as those minds did not ask them at all). The project seemed to be too complex for those minds. (If I were a bad guy, I would say, because of their papers certifying their knowledge )
It's hard to manage a family. And much harder to manage a continent.
SkyWalker
-- modified at 9:39 Monday 12th December, 2005
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Mircea Puiu wrote: What would you say finding out that, actually, more than 75% of the population in (almost) any EU contry is not happy at all with being part of the EU?
I'm not surprised by the fact at all. I've shown Poland because it has recently joined and is from Eastern Europe.
Mircea Puiu wrote: If I were a bad guy...
Mind being a bad guy than ? :p
Mircea Puiu wrote: It's hard to manage a family. And much harder to manage a continent.
So true. Fortunatly I neither have a family to manage nor a continent
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Human stupidity is infinite.
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Back to the issue of the original post. I don't think I could ever take a degree in computer science of any sort serious for this reason. Unlike other major degrees I.E. Mathmatics, Physics, Chemistry and other traditional majors; computer science is based solely on the current trends of the market and popularity, which means it is more of a technology, a tool that is used. A degree in practicality is no better then a certification ascribed by a institution with a reputation. Unless these trends can be stabilized into a given set of notation no school will ever be able combine the technology and the theories needed to describe computer science.
nothing
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These talks is like a buzz! Commonly NO! A programmer is a programmer. By case study : YES! You prefer to hire some programmer that is fammiliar with the promlem. But categorizing the job means categorizing the problems that we solve. So please someone give me a categorized list of problems that , we , programmers solve - and they are at least 2 groups : Domain problems & Technical problems. So Do It Please!
Kaveh Shahbazian
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Alex Orovetskiy wrote: I'm pretty much happy in my part of non-EU Europe which I hope won't be EUized for at least 10 years.
I second this. And, if you take into account the misery behind the yugoslavian tragedy, i would rather say never instead of "10 years".
"dire io è lento, dire noi è rock"
rechi+
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Governments are higher up the immigration food chain than companies. The company has to follow the governmental guidelines and degrees are liked by governments. They don't count work experience for instance.
But that is a nasty place to be, being denied a job as you are "over qualified."
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland
Colib and ilikecameras.
K(arl) wrote:
oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Is nasty standing for:
No Advantage Set To You?
SkyWalker
-- modified at 8:38 Monday 12th December, 2005
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I don't think I could ever take a degree in computer science of any sort serious for this reason. Unlike other major degrees I.E. Mathmatics, Physics, Chemistry and other traditional majors; computer science is based solely on the current trends of the market and popularity, which means it is more of a technology, a tool that is used. A degree in practicality is no better then a certification ascribed by a institution with a reputation. Unless these trends can be stabilized into a given set of notation no school will ever be able combine the technology and the theories needed to describe computer science.:
nothing
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I don't have a degree in Computer Science but in Physics but I have worked in many researh projects of CS of analogous institutions.I believe that there should be a golden ratio between technology trends and theoretical background either in certifications or in institutional degrees.I don't have a "global" opinion, i can express only the current status in Greece where i live and work.Here the whole technology market trends are fall short of the current trends about 5 years and the university syllabus about 10 years.University degrees are far overevaluated and certifications are not widely spread so their special weight is not currently countable.From my current point of view it would be a waste of time to get a degree but it would set off my reputation(and salary) as a developer.None would care if i had a certification.
I'm very sad to say that market,universities and jobs here in Greece dealing with development completely suck.
Total hell.And this is happening because of lack of knowledge,expertise and classifications among roles.Every conveyor in this system has its own portion of fault,nobody is willing to change and in the end we all pay the price and we get behind evolution.
Total dissappointment.Of course there should be a classification.Why should i be treated and payed the same with a guy writing in VB (sorry no offense for the language but for the culture that has cultivated) simple data-entry applications while i currently deal with a distributed computing project, because an idiot woke up one day and baptised both of us developers.Sorry i can't accept that, because i do these s**t for a living and if i'm scaled unequally i will be underpaid.
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icestatue wrote: computer science is based solely on the current trends of the market and popularity,
Dont think so. More likely a computer science degree is about a decade behind current trends.
But to be honest i dont really think of one as much use either. Perhapsa business related degree would give a better foundation as a lot of developers dont understand what business really needs and have even less idea how to provide it.
JJ
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I am not entirely sure how my response ended up as a new thread, please use the main thread for this topic to adress all other comments.  I still stick by my previous statment. Even though there are a large percentage of colleges that are 5-10 years behind the times, there are also colleges that are 5-10 years ahead of the market. One example of this would be Dr. Brooks at MIT who has worked on various advanced AI concepts. And I am sure there are also others that bring creativity and inspiration to computer sciences as well. I originally did not set up a given time frame for the bases of that statment, for which I am sorry.
nothing
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Yep, I have a degree in Software Engineering and found it useful for introducing me to topics but that's about it. After the "Introduction" I kinda learned the rest myself.
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In Mexico, we actually _have_ an union. Indeed, I'll be spending my two last weeks of the year in Cancun
Greetings,
K.K.
It's not right, in one life, too much rain
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I'm off to PE[^] between Christmas and New Year's.
Not quite Cancun, but I've got family down there, so it'll be nice anyway.
Cheers,
Simon
> blog:: brokenkeyboards
> my opinion of VS05 :: here
> CV :: PDF
> article :: SVG animation
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Maybe once we have a programmers union we can start getting rid of the notion that just because we are in IT we don't get paid overtime.
Bye,
Johan
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Maybe if you finished your designated tasks on time, you won't need to worry about overtime.
------- sig starts
"I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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And what happens when your boss (the designer) didn't do their job well... Usually, the delay in projects (and eventually, the time we -the programmers- have to spent at night) are caused because of bad decitions of the project leaders. Often, also, sellers sell things that the system cannot do, and -there you go- a new development has to be made with too few time. In those cases, we actually should be paid overtime.
Yet, in Mexico at least, we don't have that problem. At least in the places I've worked, they do pay overtime, and often they reward the effort (i.e. in March the company is taking us to Acapulco, all expenses included, for one week).
One day you'll find
that I have gone,
for tomorrow may rain, so
I'll follow the sun...
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