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I see a lot of comments thanking the answerer, Luc.
However, I agree the design needs adjusting.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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We're adding voting to comments (simply good/bad - sorry Luc) so that rubbish like this can be filtered. Votes to answers will be tied to comments, and if the comment is inappropriate it, and its associated vote, get removed.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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In the end, you probably will have spent lots of efforts resulting in a forum as we know it but with a different layout.
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I agree, but I can't really complain about the QA forum, since I don't own this site.
In my view, the QA forum is a response to you-know-what. If Chris&Co. believe the QA forum will make the site more attractive to advertisers, then I'm all for it.
On the plus side, I believe the QA forum has had the beneficial effect of absorbing questions that would clog the regular forums.
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Quick Answers is something I'd had planned for years. Years and years. We certainly looked at what else was out there in the final revisions, but the core of Quick Answers is our base CMS, which allows us lots of fun options, and the core of the UI is a flat BBS style single-question-multiple-answers that I'd been wanting to try forever.
Initially I was going to make the forums one, single forum, with tagged posts, but I truly believe the forums are great for rambling disucssions, and QA is great for focussing on an answer.
The question is, though: do rambling discussions get you better answers? Does a focussed Question and Answer make it easier for those searching for answers find what they need. Remember: one of the core goals here was to reduce the number of questions posted. (and so no: it's not a response to any advertising pressure)
In any case, we're going to continue playing with it. Nothing ever gets accomplished if you don't at least give things a try and see where they go. The more constructive input we get on how to improve, the better.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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I am constantly (pleasantly) surprised at the little nidbits that pop out in forum threads (even in the Lounge). I think Luc is 100% right on that score.
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For programming fora too?
In general, do you feel that a dedicated page for a question and it's answers (with the best answer first) is more or less beneficial to someone actually trying to find an answer than threaded discussions?
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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I will try to word this sensitively.
If the CP search facility worked effectively, then it wouldn't matter whether you're searching QA or a proggie forum.
Given a newbie mentality, I doubt that most questions are preceded by, "Hmmm. Should I do a search first?"
To answer your question, for vets, it doesn't matter, because they will read all the answers anyways; for newbies, a forum where a non-numerical rating (thumbs-up only) could be attached to an answer would be helpful.
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The search is something we are planning on fixing, though I do strongly feel that if newbies searched, they wouldn't be asking the types of questions we see. In this case, even the best search system is useless.
(on the side: what do you consider an "effective" search system in this context?)
Hans Dietrich wrote: a forum where a non-numerical rating (thumbs-up only) could be attached to an answer would be helpful.
Luc?
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: what do you consider an "effective" search system
If google can find it on the site, then so should the CP search engine.
I had an example of this yesterday. I will try to remember what it was.
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I too have had the unpleasant experience of not finding my own stuff on CP.
Hans Dietrich wrote: If google can find it on the site, then so should the CP search engine.
I would like to agree, however we can't expect CP to spend the resources Google does in developing its algorithms.
OTOH I'm inclined (or sufficiently naive) to expect it could become much better with a limited effort, and that in turn would improve the "user experience" and somewhat reduce the number of junk questions.
If I can find the time, I'll do some research and make a suggestion to Chris.
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Luc Pattyn wrote: If I can find the time, I'll do some research and make a suggestion to Chris.
I had to come up with a search algo for my site (link below) and discovered that it was trivial to let google do the work for me - a site search without the ugly google logo. As you say, google's the best.
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Hans,
1.
if you have a solution that uses Google and works in real-time, i.e. it can find the data right after it has been added to your site, then I'm interested in learning about it for my personal use; and I would applaud it be available on CP of course.
2.
For CP I would hope to first find what is present, and then get even more functionality than Google can offer, e.g. I would like to first search, then interactively sort the results (when they are not too many), maybe by creation date, by last update date, by average score. IMO DataGridView functionality (such as in CP Vanity) is great; I implemented that on my own site (which uses full search, not word indexing, without problem, made possible by its very limited database size).
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This probably wouldn't work for you. I'm not interested in finding something seconds after it has been added. I DO want to be able to find stuff I know is there and has been there for a while, which is my benchmark for an effective search.
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OK, I have the normal Google search box on my site, it only finds what has been indexed before; I also have a pretty good idea how and when they crawl the web, the net result is it only finds what has been there for say 2 weeks.
That has its merits, however if I need to suddenly reply to a CP forum message I know I read only a few days ago, it wouldn't help me. OTOH, CP and Google having a special relationship may solve that. Most forum messages are reported by Google right away, all too often the question I read on CP and try to answer is the first thing that shows up in Google!
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Chris Maunder wrote: what do you consider an "effective" search
I was looking for my article on DLLs, specifically Part 3, which I knew was called "XDLLPt3". The CP article search found no matches. google found this: Step by Step: Calling C++ DLLs from VC++ and VB - Part 3[^]
So to answer your question: an effective search is one that finds something I know is there.
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Wow.
We never, ever thought anyone would search on filename. I just learned a new thing.
I will add that peice of meta data to the full text index.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Hans should use QA then, it offers 5 radio buttons, none of them is numbered (don't click "vote", numbers may suddenly appear).
voting means a reader expresses his appreciation; he can judge positively or negatively the things he reads (articles, answers, comments, anything a user enters), and the average score can:
1. help CP to create ordered lists,
2. enable future candidate readers to make a quick selection.
having a scale (e.g. 1-to-5) allows for nuance.
voting here is not to be confused with an election, where all participants express their preference amongst candidates.
BTW: maybe scoring is the better term.
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Luc Pattyn wrote: voting here is not to be confused with an election
On CP, you can be sure that voting will not be considered an election. Maybe sniping. Maybe "people acting immaturely". Maybe "wreaking havoc on the community spirit". Maybe "sabotaging the site good-will". Maybe "driving away prospective new members". Maybe "destroying the interest in contributing".
But not an election. Nope, you got that one nailed, Luc.
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Chris wants CP to be very open, he dislikes all measures than are less than friendly towards new and existing users, even when some of them misbehave; he also goes a long way chasing and correcting misbehavior once it got signaled.
Personally I would consider giving zero voting weight (i.e. no voting rights) on white members, 1 on bronze, 2 on silver, etc. That would solve almost all voting abuse, but it would also muzzle well-intended newcomers. It must be very hard to do good by everyone.
BTW: the election was mentioned only because there is an occasion that only allows for positive votes; but then all candidates are being evaluated by all participants, whereas you and I read a different set of articles or messages on CP.
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Luc Pattyn wrote: That would solve almost all voting abuse
Wow, what on earth are you smoking?
A simple "up-vote" meets all your requirements, with none of the negatives:
1. An up-vote allows a reader to express his appreciation; he can judge positively (an up-vote)or negatively (no vote) the things he reads (articles, answers, comments, etc.)
2. The accumulated score can 1) help CP to create ordered lists; and 2) enable readers to make a quick selection.
3. The accumulated scores of several articles/tips/etc. can be compared, allowing for nuance.
See? Once you forget about shooting fish in a barrel 1-to-5 votes, life becomes good.
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Hans Dietrich wrote: A simple "up-vote" meets all your requirements,
Not at all. Author A writes an excellent article on a specialized topic, is so honest not to up-vote himself, and then gets two readers, one of them up-votes, as a result he is at 1 positive vote.
Another author B spends much less time writing a crappy article, votes himself up, creates four more accounts and votes himself up somewhat more, then all MVPs (or all 7 million members, it does not matter) read and reject that article, it ends up having 5 positive votes.
The voting system you suggest is worthless.
We need (and have) a scoring system, similar to an exam. If its crap, you get 0 out of 10 (or 1 in 1-to-5); if it is excellent, you get 10 out of 10 (or 5 in 1-to-5). Whatever the number of people who have voted so far, the overall opinion gets reflected by averaging individual scores; furthermore a weighting factor is quite acceptable to take authority into account.
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The one thing you said I agree with is about weighted scoring.
All the rest is nonsense.
The current voting system is the #1 problem here. It's not going to get better with bandaids. In fact, over time, its problems have gotten a great deal worse, because CP gets a lot more traffic now. Ditch the idea that people here will act responsibly and maturely. They vote likes and dislikes. They vote iFad dujour. The more traffic and new members CP gets, the worse this will become.
We will never get back to the reality you're fantasizing about. The best thing we can do is minimize the havoc and bad feelings generated by immature "gimme" new members. We need to ensure they cannot disrupt the community we have.
Let's get rid of negative voting now.
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Sorry, I disagree and have nothing to add.
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Can I offer a suggestion?
Hans likes a solution that takes into account the reality of the average voter. Luc thinks about how he votes and needs a system that allows him to express how he feels.
I agree, and want, a system that does both.
How about if the voting system showed an 'thumbs up' vote, and a 'flag as inappropriate' vote. However, a third option is shown ("more vote options") that, when checked, changes the voting system into a 1-5 system for those who feel they need it.
2 problems with this that I can see
1. It's not as streamlined as it could be. Providing the extra option muddies the water
2. By making the defaul "thumbs up" I'm biasing the lowest common denominator
Even so, it's a solution. Any others?
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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