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The thing is I've never had any respect for you, so it's kind of flattering that you're calling me a knobhead.
modified 26-Oct-13 11:40am.
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Mladen Janković wrote: The thing is I've never had any respect for you, so it's kind of flattering that you're calling me a knobhead.
Cockmuncher, I couldn't give a f*** what you think of me. As a contemptable knob I'm glad you want nothing to do with me.
You live in the land of let's have a long term war with our neighbours (really countrymen) so you should have seen at least conscripted military service. As such, you know that you don't f*** around with the military or police with guns. You would also know that American TV Cop shows and movies are bullshit. You can't just dodge bullets and then shoot a bloke in the edge of the shoulder to make him drop the gun.
Dead Yank was a 13 year old. Not sure if Serbia makes their 13 year olds easily and obviously distinguishable from adults but over here they don't. My 13 year old daughter is 8cm taller than her mother and as tall or taller than the average female adult over here. My son at 13 didn't look anything adult like, but I have run into many Coconuts (Pacific Islanders) who at 13 were as big as me (188cm and 100kg). They're armed with something that looks like a gun and I'm in a country of large gun related deaths, I'm shooting first and asking questions later.
But that is probably because I wear my underpants underneath my clothes. Unlike you, Superman.
Michael Martin
Australia
"I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible."
- Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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Apparently replica/toys have a couloured tip (orange I think) on the barrel, his gun did not have that, he was told to drop the weapon by a cop, he DID NOT. Where do you get off disparaging cops for doing their job. How else are they expected to react, these are the guys who are trained and paid to move towards a disaster not run and hide.
Do you not listen when there is a school shooting in the land of guns, some disaffected teenager shoots and kills n# people, and you expect cops not to shoot in this circumstance.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Mycroft Holmes wrote: Where do you get off disparaging cops for doing their job.
So killing innocent, unarmed people is regular police job nowadays. Okay, good to know.
Mycroft Holmes wrote: move towards a disaster
These mobsters created one.
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The kid did tried to look dangerous and armed - he succeeded.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Mladen Janković wrote: So killing innocent, unarmed people is regular police job nowadays. Okay, good to know.
You obviously have no conception at all of what police work is like.
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Mladen Janković wrote: If the cops had brains they would take cover if they were scared for their lives
Police don't get to run away just because they might get shot. That is how it works.
Mladen Janković wrote: Still less tragic than this one
Nonsense.
Mladen Janković wrote: and it wouldn't happen if cops weren't acting like a mob.
Per the report they were doing exactly what any well trained police officer would do in that situation.
Mladen Janković wrote: Ah, 'evolution' that will create population of obedient slaves, never-question-authority morons like these
Complete utter nonsense. US citizens challenge authority all the time. And the rate at which that is happening has increased dramatically over the years. Read some history.
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The real questionable statement is that the rifle didn't have the orange tip on it that indicates it's not real. It may have, and they could have removed it to cover their collective asses.
I don't trust a cop's statement any more than I trust anyone else's.
At the same time, you got two cops (allegedly) screaming at you to throw down what they think is a weapon, and you make ANY movement that does not make a reasonable indication that you're complying with their demand, and you should expect to be shot for being a retard.
At the same time, cops aren't to be trusted in either action or word. They're trained to believe that anyone that isn't a cop is a bad guy.
It's a screwed up world we live it, and it has nothing to do with "culture" (Dave Auld). It has EVERYTHING to do with human nature and training.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Regrettably, I have to agree.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: They're trained to believe that anyone that isn't a cop is a bad guy.
And also to believe that anyone who is a cop is a good guy. And they protect their own regardless as a result...
The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.
English doesn't borrow from other languages.
English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: They're trained to believe that anyone that isn't a cop is a bad guy.
But to be fair that is what all armed forces do. You don't want to go into a fire fight with someone that you don't trust.
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Shameel wrote: Paranoia?
No, reality. In a country where guns are king, failing to follow instructions by police to put down what they believed to be a weapon, will unfortunately results in a tragic outcome.
Will this continue to serve as a reminder to others? Sadly no, life will go on as if this never happened, and will only impact the friends and family of the individual shot.
Unless there is a radical culture shift, it will continue to happen till the end of time.
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Too bloody stupid to obey a cop when you KNOW they are armed and dangerous.
Being a teenager he could run the gamut of a nice well brought up kid playing with a toy gun to a crazed, drug raddled maniac with a deadly weapon.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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After seeing the replies, I think it would be better to post this somewhere else than the Lounge in the future.
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Well, as a gun owner with a "scary black gun" that someone in an email insulted (no offense taken), I can tell you that the boy did not have a "toy". He either had an airsoft rifle OR a pellet rifle made to look like the real thing.
Again, it's not a toy. It fires projectiles and as such, no orange tip. I can understand the officers' concern. Score 1 for them.
HOWEVER, they seriously f'd up. They took cover behind their car. They had cover. The individual was turning around. What would YOU do if you heard someone yelling at you? It's a natural human reaction. Plus there are insufficient details in the police report - how long between him starting to turn around in response to the "drop it" and when the police opened fire? But, this I find telling:
""The deputy's mindset was that he was fearful that he was going to be shot," said Santa Rosa police Lt. Paul Henry..."
They are already trying to justify the shooting.
Score -3 for them. They overreacted.
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The fact is, I can LEGALLY walk down the street in broad daylight with my firearm, just like this kid was doing.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house.
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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charlieg wrote: The fact is, I can LEGALLY walk down the street in broad daylight with my firearm, just like this kid was doing.
Yes. But if a cop yells at you, twice, to put the weapon down, and you don't - you know how that is going to turn out. If you start to turn, and raise your weapon they are going to fire. To protect themselves. To protect the public. Because they are scared. Maybe all three. Whatever, it's not going to end well for you, and you know that.
If it happened the way the cops describe (and these are cops, so I'd want video to prove it rather than trust their word) then the outcome was pretty much the only one that could happen in modern America.
The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.
English doesn't borrow from other languages.
English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.
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To a degree, I agree. Goodness, did I just say that?
Just the way the police statement was phrased is all I need to know. They are in CYA mode.
Here is a 13 yo kid. His *back* was turned to them. He hears someone yell, "put the gun down" and all he does is turn around to see who is yelling at him... Smart? No. Natural reaction? Yes. Did he raise the gun? very debatable. If he's walking along, it's likely not even to his shoulder. Sorry, the entire point of TRAINING is to be able to discern the real situation.
The fact is that a good majority of the police in this country are on a power trip. It's not about protecting the public. I'm sure that there are good ones. We also have issues with late night police invasions. If some dark cladded figures were outside my door then kicked it in, the LAST thing I would do is drop my weapon.
It should be interesting as more facts come out. I don't think we have the entire story.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house.
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Not going to argue about the rest, but:charlieg wrote: They took cover behind their car. They had cover
Yes against a pellet gun a car is a cover, but if it had been the AK-47 that the policemen allegedly believed it was, a car would have been marginally better than a cardboard box. Unless the police is equipped with armoured cars nowadays.
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
Abraham Lincoln
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I agree. But it should have given them a few more seconds to consider the situation.
Time will tell as more statements are made...
Charlie Gilley
<italic>You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house.
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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charlieg wrote: HOWEVER, they seriously f'd up. They took cover behind their car. They had cover. The individual was turning around. What would YOU do if you heard someone yelling at you? It's a natural human reaction. Plus there are insufficient details in the police report - how long between him starting to turn around in response to the "drop it" and when the police opened fire?
Err...have you ever been shot at? Or thought that you would be shot at? You don't get to sit down in a conference room for several hours to decide the best action.
Police are not trained to wait to see if someone is going to shoot. There is no mandate that they must wait to be shot before returning fire. They actually do get to shoot first. They don't have to wait to see if someone heard the instruction nor even if they understood it. It isn't an all or nothing situation. They, per the report, gave a warning. If the person had been 25 and high on PCP this would have never been seen anywhere except in the local paper.
charlieg wrote: They overreacted.
They reacted just like trained officers do.
charlieg wrote: The fact is, I can LEGALLY walk down the street in broad daylight with my firearm, just like this kid was doing.
The fact is that if you walk down the street with a drawn weapon and when the police order you to put it down (which is going to happen if you walk around like that for very long) you turn on them then you are going to get shot. And it will be ruled justified.
And even if you walk down the street with a holstered weapon they you are probably going to be approached by the police at some point.
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"The fact is that if you walk down the street with a drawn weapon and when the police order you to put it down (which is going to happen if you walk around like that for very long) you turn on them then you are going to get shot. And it will be ruled justified."
Drawn? All we know is he was carrying it. I've ready everything I can find, nothing suggests this kid pointed the weapon in any sort of threatening manner. He didn't "turn on them" - he may have turned around. That is all we know.
I hope you never are waved over by a police officer on the side of the road. These days, If you don't stop fast enough, he might conclude that "he is fearing for his life because you aren't slowing down fast enough...." and he fires into your vehicle. Happens way too much.
Or yet, maybe you live next door to someone wanted by the police and they go to the wrong house - your house. You get shot because at 3am, you're not thinking clearly and cannot respond to commands fast enough for the assault team....
Charlie Gilley
<italic>You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house.
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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charlieg wrote: Drawn? All we know is he was carrying it.
From the article that was posted "but he instead raised it in the deputy's direction".
And given that it was described as "The gun looked just like an AK-47 assault rifle, with a black body and ammunition magazine," then he was probably carrying it in exactly the way that one would carry it to shoot it.
charlieg wrote: I hope you never are waved over by a police officer on the side of the road.
These days, If you don't stop fast enough, he might conclude that "he is fearing
for his life because you aren't slowing down fast enough...." and he fires into
your vehicle. Happens way too much.
Nonsense. Police fire at vehicles for several reasons but it has NOTHING to do with routine traffic stops nor if someone attempts to evade a stop. Matter of FACT a common scenario with an attempt to evade on a routine stop is that the police let the car go - because they recognize that a high speed chase with no other extenuating circumstances is too dangerous for everyone. (Matter of fact I have seen comments from motorcyclists that cite this policy explicitly in terms of them speeding away due to their perception that they are being targeted for stops.)
The most common scenarios for shooting at a car are because the suspect is SHOOTING at the police from inside the car or because the suspect is trying to run down the police officer with the car.
charlieg wrote: You get shot because at 3am, you're not thinking clearly and cannot respond to
commands fast enough for the assault team....
Yes that is tragic. However it has nothing to do with this situation. And it also ignores the reality that the legal system is human just like everyone else and so mistakes happen.
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Carefully.... is how they are supposed to react. It's still legal to walk around with any weapon like that.
We still don't know exactly how the 13 yo "threatened" the police. All we know is that he *may* have turned around when they yelled at him. Autopsy will reveal more.
Still leaning toward the trigger happy opinion. As for the guy you cite, he was a WANTED felon. Not even a reasonable comparison, but it does lead to the question - if the police are now scared all of the time because of how whacky society is, then is it reasonable for them to shoot if they get nervous?
If so, it's going to get messy.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house.
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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