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Ok, then what are they like?
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IMHO you'll find more variation in programming jobs than in other professions because computers intersect just about every technology, and just about every human endeavor.
I've worked on: A computer-vision system for NASA that plots a trajectory and firing to dock with a satellite based on snapshots of the satellite, a robot dog, DNA analysis to find divergence of species during evolution, using genetic algorithms to "evolve" designs for computer systems, schedules for nurses, and stock-market strategies, image processing and analysis for a variety of inspection systems, expert systems for design and for diagnosis of diseases, and data mining. And these are just some of the more interesting applications.
I think a good math background will prepare you for the more-interesting software jobs.
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Ok, those are interesting. But I don't see jobs like that offered anywhere.
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The ads for the interesting jobs never gave a clue how interesting they were. I got a lot of them through word of mouth; get a reputation as an excellent programmer and leads will appear.
Computer Science, like Mathematics, is really many different related fields. Master the most general and powerful areas in both so that when an opportunity arises, you'll be able to come up with innovative and powerful solutions.
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harold aptroot wrote: Not out of programming, of course. Programming is fun. Out of programming professionally, which is, apparently, the most boring thing on earth.
If this is really how you feel and you aren't just having a bad moment, then you may be making the right decision, because you won't be successful at professional programming with that attitude.
Pretty much all of us with experience have cut our teeth on uninteresting projects. You're lucky that your problem is just having a boring task to do.
My first project was to automate an internal build system written by one of the other programmers, who was in hot water because he kept working on it but never finished and it kept having issues (like, taking eight hours to traverse a build tree in the most ridiculous way possible, when it should have taken five minutes). What made things interesting is that he covered his butt by telling management that he'd given me the source code, but then he refused to give me necessary assemblies that only existed on his box and weren't in source control (so no one but him could really work on it, he was pissed that management was having a new guy come in to clean up his mess). So it was an impossible situation politically, completely aside from any technical problems. I couldn't even build any changes, and he was telling management I wasn't getting anywhere because I wasn't good enough to understand his code (said code was unimpressive). I thought it was going to cost me my job, but I ended up being moved to a different department, where I was immediately assigned the task of generating complex tax forms from an undocumented database I knew nothing about. Which was great, because at least no one was standing in my way and I was able to get it done, and move on to other projects like moving large amounts of money through a rickety Rube Goldberg contraption, exciting! But when I finally left that job I had a lot of valuable, marketable experience.
If you really can't handle boring projects, then you sure aren't going to like the tedious-but-terrifying projects that all programmers end up doing now and again. Even senior programmers don't get to choose to only work on projects they are interested in, I've seen some try and only succeed in hurting their reputations with management.
Just keep in mind that leaving the profession is likely a permanent decision. Once you've been out a few years with no real-world experience, it's going to be hard to go back. Not impossible if you can document things like open-source projects you've worked on, but it will be hard to get back in as a pro.
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Why would I want back in anyway?
I'm not sure what you guys are trying to tell me, but the message I take away from it is that programmer is a worse job than being unemployed.
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Well, once you get to a certain level of experience programming pays fairly well, and it tends to be a secure job if you make yourself valuable. To me that's a hell of a lot better than being unemployed.
There are no perfect jobs out there. People with dream jobs usually have connections and spent a while getting there and got lucky to boot, and it's still not perfect. Most professional jobs are like this, not just programming. That's why they have to pay us.
I hate to say it, but unless there is more to this than you're saying then it really sounds like you have an unrealistic sense of entitlement. If you feel that writing an XML conversion script is beneath you as a programming intern, then you aren't likely to find a job in any field that lives up to your expectations.
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StatementTerminator wrote: unrealistic sense of entitlement
That seems to be the general opinion.
I prefer to see it as standing up for myself.
Unemployed is actually a pretty decent job, by the way. It is the most secure job - you can't really lose it except on purpose. And you can make yourself infinitely more valuable than you can by creating XML converters. The pay isn't great, of course, but who cares.
It really didn't have to be a dream job. It only had to be something that doesn't make me want to kill myself.
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harold aptroot wrote: I prefer to see it as standing up for myself.
Unemployed is
actually a pretty decent job, by the way. It is the most secure job - you can't
really lose it except on purpose. And you can make yourself infinitely more
valuable than you can by creating XML converters. The pay isn't great, of
course, but who cares.
Certainly as it appears in that statement I wouldn't want to work with someone with that attitude.
harold aptroot wrote: It really didn't have to be a dream job. It only had to be something that
doesn't make me want to kill myself.
As I already said in the previous reply the job you described appeared to be an entry level job. It is a non-critical, non-complex project with the potential to allow someone to learn how to work in a professional environment.
It isn't a playground.
If you are in fact an experienced programmer then I have no idea why you are seeking that job.
If conversely you have no experience then why should someone give you something different? You might believe that the job itself is not important but that doesn't mean other people don't. Nor does it mean that they should coddle those that are unwilling to strive to meet the goals of the job.
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Ok, here's how it happened.
I had no job for some time. I looked, but just about none of them intersected significantly with my skill set.
I sent my CV to some company thing that matches people with jobs.
That company wanted me to just have a chat with some professionals, to get more than just my word on whether I'm actually a programmer or not (I thought that was just mildly insulting, given that I had discussed my portfolio with them, but I figured that's just the way these guys roll - too makes fakes, perhaps). Just a chat, that's all.
Well, the professionals that I was only supposed to be having a chat with were like "holy sh*t, give us that guy", and they all (including the company that's supposed to help me) talked me into at least seeing what it would be like (no one wanted to see anything about what the job really was, but they made it seem at least half-decent). So I was like OK, I'll go along with this for now, can't hurt to look..
Well it was less than half-decent.
As a bonus, I looked up that job opening on their site and it turns out that even a fresh college graduate is technically overqualified for it (as in, they're explicitly listing lower requirements).
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Well, OK, if you are in a situation where you don't need a paycheck and want to pursue your own interests instead, go ahead if you really want to do that. It sounds like you are fed up with working in general, not just programming.
Just remember, a girlfriend can change your responsibilities and financial needs with two words 
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harold aptroot wrote: the message I take away from it is that programmer is a worse job than being unemployed
Of course it is, because every job is worse than being unemployed. There isn't anything you have to do to be unemployed. Of course trying and failing to get employed is worse yet, because the pay is terrible and really discouraging.
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harold aptroot wrote: The reason I went into programming in the first place, about ten years ago, is
for the interesting problems. So if all everyone's doing is converting stupid
XML formats and the like, it's just not the right profession for me.
Which profession do you think you will be seeking which will be fun 40 years from now? And will be fun every hour of every day?
The very basis of a profession is that someone else is going to be paying money for what they want, not what you want.
Maybe what you are looking for is a hobby.
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"...they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally."
XSLT: http://www.w3schools.com/xsl/[^]
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Yea that was my first thought.
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Document the format then create some XSLT transformations, personally, I have done something like this before and is boring as hell, but it's perfectly doable.
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--Instead, they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally. Ok, sure, arcane to undocumented, perfectly doable, given enough time.
Given enough time? It should take only minutes.
What you're describing is a XSLT...a transformation from one XML format to another XML format. XSLT does precisely that.
Oh...and now you can demand the internal format....if it's wrong...change the XSLT config and you're done.
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It sounds like most of the respondees are reading into your description, that the politics and the personalities are the issue. But reading your actual description you really are just saying that the task just doesn't seem to you like it's worth doing.
So you are saying that you don't see the value of converting from one XML schema to another one.
On the other hand you did just start there and have little background on the importance or usefulness of it. In addition, sometimes when you start out, as an intern, guess what: you get to do the boring stuff that others don't feel like doing.
If you really are thinking about quitting the profession just because you are given a task that you feel is beneath you as an intern. Then by all means do so, because it seems you picked the wrong profession (but I doubt you will find the situation is much different in other fields).
On the other hand if it is, as others were reading into your comments, that the actual problem is a caustic and unworkable environment and personalities, then it might make sense to move on.
Although learning how to make things work in spite of the personalities involved is still something you would have to figure out at some point.
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Sounds like a good time to practice your documentation skills. Tell them that such a project can't be started until the XML to be converted into is fully documented so the two can be mapped for the conversion, which is perfectly true.
That gets you time and a paycheck to looks for something better, plus you can add that onto your resume to show you accomplished something while there. A good workplace will respect that you can do documentation. A place that doesn't is not a good place to work.
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CP member Tim Carmichael gave you good advice.
XML has very few rules, but they are strict, documented, and all MUST be followed for it to be XML. So, is it XML? (Can you put it up on IE and expand/collapse groups? If you can, it is documented XML.)
The format is intentionally undocumented, something to be done by the company who uses it.
Unfortunately, it is common for a company to implement a new XML format without any documentation of what they are doing within XML. Or, if they do have documentation, they forget to tell the new employee where it is and how to access it.
If you haven't asked, do ask for their documentation. If they don't have it, now is the perfect time to volunteer to do it for them if they want. You know all the trials and tribulations you are going through right now, so you know what the benefits it would give you to have the documentation of what they are using right now. (By the way documentation isn't teleported to you from nothing, somebody has to write it.)
Same thing with their "enterprisey piece of..."
harold aptroot wrote: But not worth doing.
That isn't your call right now. You said this was a job. If that is true, you are getting paid and you agreed the payment was reasonable. If you were told you were getting a desk job and then told you have to muck out the sewer, that is reason to quit. This seems a common programmer duty, especially since you don't know enough yet to be useful to them in their current enterprise.
You aren't there for your amusement or pleasure, you are there to make the company more money than they are spending on you. At this time this is leading to an unpleasant task that they see is a ROI worth doing. Seek a way to volunteer to make it more pleasant in the future or quit. When you quit, the reason can be "not worth doing", but as long as you still work there either suck it up and do it, or find a way to do it that feels that you are at least getting some satisfaction out of it.
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Good, even more reason to leave the damn field.
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If you are talking about being there to make the company more money than they spend on you, you won't find a company in any field that is different.
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No, that is to be expected. Otherwise they'd have no reason to hire you.
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Not all programming jobs are like that. But all have their share of manure to wade through.
Keep in mind that as an intern, they don't want to let you damage anything. And from your description, it would be easy to damage their system. On the other hand, they have this work they need done and don't want to do....
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Has Sean been going up to City Hall[^] to give image advice?
[Asking for a friend]
speramus in juniperus
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