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Joel Palmer wrote: how they can justify charging developers $5000
It's called business.
Veni, vidi, abiit domum
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You've missed the point. Developers are MS life blood. If I'm buying a MSDN subscription then I'm a pretty serious developer. As a developer I keep my customers coming back for more when I meet their requirements and if I do that using MS technology then the customers buy more MS licenses.
Good business would be to let developers increase the MS bottom line by having them using more MS products in their solutions. Pricing their products out of a developer's solutions does not make any business sense.
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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You are making a couple of faulty assumptions: that MS care about developers, and the MS care about end users. They don't: they care about money. And the large companies they expect to sell the top-end product to will just pay up and move on, because it isn't the people signing the purchase order's money. While there are people who will pay it, they will continue to gouge charge.
Have to considered buying second hand copies of office on FleaBay to complete your collection that way, probably cost less than $500 for the lot...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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OriginalGriff wrote: You are making a couple of faulty assumptions: that MS care about developers, and the MS care about end users.
Er, no, I didn't make those assumptions anywhere.
Veni, vidi, abiit domum
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I know you didn't.
But I think Joel did... 
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Not true. Developers are the lifeblood of MSFT and we create the ecosystem from which they generate $billions of profit. Unfortunately, they do not understand the developer community. If they did, they would have free MSDN licenses for individual developers and charge for corporate licenses for those who develop commercial products. Developers like me generate huge revenues and profits for MSFT through SQL Server, Office, Azure, etc. licenses yet we have to pay dearly for the privilege (Visual Studio license fees, MSDN subscription, TFS, training fees and alike). It is just sad.
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John Korondy wrote: Not true.
What's not true? I think maybe this reply belongs somewhere else.
Veni, vidi, abiit domum
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I agree with your conclusions but I don't agree that they don't care.
MS is made up of a bunch of developers and we're developers. I think that's just a brash and over-extended generalization. Unless you're saying that you don't care about the work you do and you suspect that all developers are the same way. Just like the company I work for, they are priced at "what the market will bare".
However, I do agree that its because we generally aren't the one filling the PO. Because we are one step removed they tend to get away with over-inflating their value. I'm just saying that it doesn't make business or logical sense that they'd price it with this much excess.
Yes, Fleabay is likely my next step. Got a copy of MS Office 97 for sale?
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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You must be a joy to have as a co-worker.  Oh no! Its 1/100ths empty. Evidentially you've never written code in Notepad.
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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Just a realist when it comes to MS: I got fed up with Beta testing on DOS because they never listened to feedback even then.
Joel Palmer wrote: Evidentially you've never written code in Notepad.
I've done worse: EDLIN[^]
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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OriginalGriff wrote: I've done worse: EDLIN[^]
And you can still go back[^]
Clean-up crew needed, grammar spill... - Nagy Vilmos
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Thank you for that generous offer, but I will reluctantly have to decline.
And I typed that with a straight face! I'm getting better at not swearing at people.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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OriginalGriff wrote: Edlin
That would make a great Hipster's baby's name.
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Man up! Use Vi
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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Vi? Of course, we 'ad it 'ard.
We used to get up in 't morning, scrape some electrons off the clouds, put them into the right addresses on 't chips one at a time.
The only way we knew it were working were if the gaffer didn't rip the roof off our shed and drive us out wit' steam hose. 
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Chips? CHIPS!? You were lucky!
We had melt sand in t'furnace - I say 'furnace', it were a lump o' coal being blown on by t' wife, and make us ain valves, t' plug togevva wit' wire we 'ad t' make oot o' fillings from our ain teef!
But ye tell t' kids of today, an' they won't believe you!
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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Teeth?
We used to dream of having teeth. They gave a pound of Tofu every month, and that was between seven of us! We had to suck it off the boss's doormats before letting out the Tartary Apes he used as Code Monkeys. And when they made mistakes, he'd beat us to death with Billy Gates' spectacle case.
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I say "teeth"!
A pound of tofu!
We 'ad three ounces of spit between all 47 of us.
Simon O'Riordan from UK wrote: Tartary Apes he used as Code Monkeys
Aye, well we 'ad access to an encyclopaedia and knew you meant Barbary apes.
Barbary apes!? You were lucky !
our boss 'ad an infinite number of pygmy marmoset monkeys [^] typin' out the complete lyrics of On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at[^] and when they made a mistake, he'd tell us off.
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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Right.
It wa' Tartary Apes because th' boss were as thick as sh*t. 
If we tried to correct him, it were t' workhouse! At Facebook!
Young Tim Lee brought in his encyclopedia and boss made him eat it!
Afterwards he could only talk in 'Markup', which 'boss patented and turned to 'nternet.
And you tell youngsters today?
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They'll not believe you.
Ending the evening with a smile on my dial - thanks buddy!
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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Vi? Vi?
Vi was for wimps! It showed you your code all the time! ED and EDLIN had to be told to show us what we had typed! And if you didn't, then you just hoped what you typed would affect the right line(s)... 
Gawd, was I ever happy when I found BRIEF ("The Programmers Editor") - I still wish for the windowing features it had in VS nowadays!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Ah Griff in his Brief days ... oh!, no, not going there.
I used a great editor on TI Minis back in the day which I used for so long, I still not only remember all the commands, but sometimes find myself trying to use them.
not sure whether it was a great editor, or I'm going senile.
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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OriginalGriff wrote: VS2010 all SHOUTY and gray...
Isn't that 2012 you are talking about?
Idon't see the problem, apart from the Menus is VS 2012 (or 2013) by far better to work with.
Clean-up crew needed, grammar spill... - Nagy Vilmos
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Yes... 
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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