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surely. but we can be friends despite that.  have a great day
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If you twist my arm, I guess. 
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I have to confess that you were right in first place. I read incorrectly "in College".  Now I'm totally with you. 
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I had 3 programming classes in high school using; BASIC, Pascal, and C. It got me excited about a career as a software developer. At the high school level, I believe that teaching the basics and exposure to multiple languages is great for new learners.
The courses were all elective, so only the students that were interested took them.
Hogan
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I don't think its the job of high school teachers to address such a narrow subject as a specific programming language. You might as well teach them to hand pull pints of bitter, which would be more useful.
The class would be full of the geeky twerpy kids anyway and they would know more than the teacher after 2 weeks 
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Two weeks? Probably upon entering the class, more likely.
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OMG,
This is what is wrong with our high schools.
They have killed Metal Shop, Wood Shop, Drafting, Plastic Shop (loved that class),
welding, etc.
I left school in 1985 and I could ACTUALLY do stuff.
Todays kids get class assignments to open a Twitter account... Like they need help with that.
But they don't learn how to balance a check book.
I also took Computer Science where I learned stuff that CARRIED ME EASILY through college:
BASIC, COBOL, FORTAN, Macro-11 Assembler, Job Scheduling, Run-Time/Run-Burst, paper and green screen monitors. The basics of Escape Codes to control monitor positioning. How to compile pieces of an operating system.
Honestly, not sure if I would have went to college without access to these classes. I grew up outside of Detroit, and it was a dangerous place. The computer room was one of the safest places I could be.
Students at that age have AMAZING potential, but they don't even realize it. Our group of students wrote software for the School Store (Inventory/Sales Management) and the Library, and general utilities for the teachers to manage the classes (creating all of the user accounts for a class with X students in one command, not X commands)
In my case, I went from programming in High School, straight into a professional software development job for 2 years, then left for college. I was making more than my father, and it funded my college. The thought of NOT offering this (when there is an ABSOLUTE SHORTAGE of this talent is mind boggling).
It is the job of Every High School to help the students prepare to succeed in life. In areas that the teachers may NOT know well, but may provide enough guidance to help. Tim Spanke died this year, he was the computer teacher I credit the most with allowing me to open my wings and learning how to fly!
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Schools are woefully short on teachers who can approach anything that requires logical thought. A friend helped his son with some physical science homework and the teacher gave the boy an F. When the father asked the teacher why she replied that she just wanted him to repeat what the book said because she didn’t understand anything about physics.
The thought of high school teachers trying to teach programming or logic makes me quake with fear.
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1. Every kid would first learn the basics of logic and logic gates.
2. Learn to build basic circuits like counters, adders, etc.
3. Learn some basic analog electronics - resistors, capacitors, induction coils, transistors, etc.
4. Build some basic analog stuff -- amplifiers, tuners, ...
5. Every kid would get an rPI or an Arduino or a BBB
6. The first intro to actual programming would be learning assembly language to blink some lights, measure voltages on the board, etc. Learn how to use a debugger to single step and inspect registers.
7. Maybe learn to write a serial communication protocol between two of the devices, and it would be cool to use infrared optics for that rather than wires.
8. Learn C. Do the same thing in #7 but in C. Learn how to use a debugger again.
9. Learn how to test
10. Learn how to document
11. Learn how to write a requirements document for then next project.
... and so forth (no pun intended.)
I think it would be really useful to introduce functional programming fairly early too, as well database architecture, parallel processing, etc.
Marc
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I agree whole heatedly, but I would also transition them into C++.
What you have proposed is similar to the logic I taught my children to drive; if you can learn to drive with a stick you can drive anything! And they can!
New version: WinHeist Version 2.1.0 Beta
There's a fine line between crazy and free spirited and it's usually a prescription.
I'm currently unsupervised, I know it freaks me out too but the possibilities are endless.
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Mike Hankey wrote: but I would also transition them into C++.
Definitely. I left out all the OO stuff, the post was getting too long, haha.
Marc
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Mike Hankey wrote: if you can learn to drive with a stick you can drive anything!
Coming from a country where cars without gear sticks are almost solely for the disabled or women who really, really cannot work out how to drive with one; I am always amazed (and amused) by the way many American's seem to view 'driving a stick' as some sort of Herculean achievement.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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It's funny very few people I know can drive a stick.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.1.0 Beta
There's a fine line between crazy and free spirited and it's usually a prescription.
I'm currently unsupervised, I know it freaks me out too but the possibilities are endless.
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I have picked up many sticks[^], eaten sticks[^], and even watched a stick[^]. But I have never driven a stick[^].
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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Once around the block and you're hooked.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.1.0 Beta
There's a fine line between crazy and free spirited and it's usually a prescription.
I'm currently unsupervised, I know it freaks me out too but the possibilities are endless.
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Synchronized or unsynchronized transmission?
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Unsync. of course, Sync. is for sissies.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.1.0 Beta
There's a fine line between crazy and free spirited and it's usually a prescription.
I'm currently unsupervised, I know it freaks me out too but the possibilities are endless.
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That is an interesting point of view, and reflects a previous mentality to programming.
Originally, CS was an offshoot of engineering and math departments, rather than a department of itself. In fact, my 'CS' degree says 'Applied Physics' on it, reflecting that mentality...
But the point of my post is to say, of everyone I have worked with, it was the Electrical Engineers turned programmers that were the best coders! In everything... consistency of quality, design patterns, teaching, work-ethic, troubleshooters... whatever it was, the EEs were the best. The folks churning out of CS departments (instead of engineering departments) always seemed either clueless, or needed the most help to ramp up.
If I ran a coding business, I would hire EEs almost exclusively.
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Pualee wrote: That is an interesting point of view, and reflects a previous mentality to programming.
Yes, I'm showing my age, but I also believe that a solid foundation is important. Being able to have some sort of a mental picture of what happens physically in a computer is, IMO, a prerequisite.
Pualee wrote: it was the Electrical Engineers turned programmers that were the best coders! In everything... consistency of quality, design patterns, teaching, work-ethic, troubleshooters... whatever it was, the EEs were the best.
That's been my experience too. You might find it interesting that my first love was actually with hardware, and I learned a lot about digital circuits before doing any coding.
Marc
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Your numbers 10 and 11 would be my numbers 1 and 2!
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clawton wrote: Your numbers 10 and 11 would be my numbers 1 and 2!
I thought about that, but if we're dealing with high school students who have no prior exposure to software development, I felt it would be putting the cart before the horse in this case.
Marc
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Not at all. Wouldn't have to be huge, just something to plant the seed that documentation is very important. 
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It should in fact be embedded in every point on your list.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Any organization is like a tree full of monkeys. The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes.
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... I would not go that route. Instead, I'd try to find a problem that excites the student, and help him solve it for himself by transmitting the knowledge to do so. Along the way I'd try to keep his excitement up as the topics you raised logically came into focus at the proper time. Perhaps there would be no 'proper time,' but in that case the student wasn't really a student, and I would reconsider my teaching approach for the next kid.
Start with excitement, go from there... I know that is far from today's teaching model, but everything I've learned has been through that method. Much of the school stuff has been forgotten, because it was unexciting in presentation, and personally.
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Definitely assembly as the first language. Not just a light blinker but something real world. It teaches you everything about step by step logic, memory management, hardware - all the things that higher level languages mask. No debugger - learn to read a core (sorry memory) dump. Then you see how it all fits together. You come to see what makes higher level languages so powerful, and why its so easy to stuff up royally using them.
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