|
Fixed.
cheers
Chris Maunder
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks, works!
Cheers,
Edgar
|
|
|
|
|
They are still getting closed far too early.
Take this one for example: what are my codes error, please tell me i'm new.[^] 17 minutes, and it's gone.
Yes, it's just a code dump. Yes, it's unformatted. No, there is no clue as to what help the OP needs.
But...as it says, he is new. Completely new - and has no idea what he is doing. And if questions like this get closed without anyone explaining what we need and giving him a chance to edit it he never will!
That isn't "working to help developers, not make them feel stupid" - it's the complete reverse.
And that means he won't come back here. And he won't tell the others on his course how helpful we are either.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You're a saint among men, even if you refuse to acknowledge that.
I put the question to you: at what point does inexperience in the technology, then language, the use of online forums or simply posing an answerable question shift over into lack of respect (or empathy?) for others?
For me it's a tough one. While there are many cases where it's clear the member is trying to provide information, it's also clear they've forgotten the basics which is: think about what you want and pose a question so you can get that answer.
I would much rather teach people to ask questions than spend inordinate amounts of time second-guessing non-questions. Many, many non-questions can be given feedback that directly and productively help the person, but has that person learned?
And then I think: how do you teach someone how to ask a question? If you teach one can you transfer that easily to another or must you start from scratch with every single person? A number of options have been given including the use of templates or adding more fields that need to be filled out ("what's the quesiton", "what have you tried", "where's the code") but we'd be trying to cram lots of square pegs into round holes with this approach.
So what do we do? Firstly, where do we draw the line on bad questions? What should our tolerance level be? Or do we dispense with the notion and treat questions and non-questions equally? Secondly, how do we help the community pose their questions more helpfully?
cheers
Chris Maunder
|
|
|
|
|
It is a tough one.
But I try to think about it from the POV of the author of the question.
Probably, when you started in this business you were the same as me: didn't have a damn clue! 
And that's scary. You have a task, you don't know what to do and it doesn't work. It's easy for panic to set in and for you to assume that everybody knows exactly what you are talking about. So when you ask a question, you just assume that your code is all we need: we can fix it because we are clever and experienced. You don't think about the problem (if you think at all) because it's there; it's in front of your face; you can't think about anything else. You have already put a fair amount of work into finding us in the first place!
And asking questions is a skill. Quite likely it's one that experienced developers use all the time - even if only with their own code - without even thinking about it. I suspect it's what makes us good developers: knowing which questions to ask and how to ask them! And like any skill, it goes through the four stages: Unconscious incompetence, Conscious incompetence, Conscious competence, Unconscious competence. But it has to be taught, it isn't something that come naturally to a lot of people.
So picture it: in mid panic (because you need to hand this in tomorrow and you spent too long in the Student Union Bar instead of working, just like I did) you found us, dumped your code and sat back for help. And if you are lucky you got a brief note saying "This was not a question, so we closed it".
How much work does it take to ask for clarification? To tell someone what details we need and why, and to explain how to add them?
I have a boilerplate for it:
This is not a good question - we cannot work out from that little what you are trying to do.
Remember that we can't see your screen, access your HDD, or read your mind.
Use the "Improve question" widget to edit your question and provide better information.
And I extend that to explain the problem for the specific question.
Just killing complete beginners questions is wrong, I think - it shows the same kind of rude arrogance that SO show to noobies. Or are people just hitting the "Not a question" button because it gets them rep points? I dunno, but it does seem to be the same set of names which crop up as the "closers".
With the exception of spammers and trolls, people post a question because they don't know what to do. If they knew what to ask and how to ask it, they would have 90% of the solution already and wouldn't have to ask us. Closing the question specifically because they don't know how to ask it, or they use the wrong words doesn't help anyone! Does it?
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
|
|
|
|
|
OriginalGriff wrote: So picture it: in mid panic (because you need to hand this in tomorrow and you spent too long in the Student Union Bar instead of working, just like I did) you found us, dumped your code and sat back for help.
Perhaps a new "homework" reporting option? Possibly with a specific board for homework questions, where members would be encouraged to provide hints, rather than full answers.
Or are you suggesting we should be doing people's homework for them? 
OriginalGriff wrote: Or are people just hitting the "Not a question" button because it gets them rep points?
Don't know if I'm one of your "same set of names", but that's definitely not my motivation. 
I tend to vote "not a question" when there's nothing but a list of requirements, possibly accompanied by a demand for code, or if it's a code-dump without an obvious question.
I try to keep "unclear or incomplete" for questions where there's no attempt to provide any information, or where the relevant information hasn't been provided some time after prompting. I've previously posted[^] my thoughts on how this option could be improved, but I don't know whether that fits with Chris's vision for the site, or how easy it would be to implement. In an ideal world, I think this option should act as more of a prompt for the user to provide the missing information, and do away with its current "go away n00b!" vibe.
I'm fully in favour of limiting, or even doing away with, rep points for closing questions. I think the points system should be more biased towards rewarding people who add to the site by answering questions - even if that does mean your "score" is never beaten!
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
|
|
|
|
|
Richard Deeming wrote: where members would be encouraged to provide hints, rather than full answers.
Why does homework get treated this way? Why do some people feel it OK to give full answers to some but not full answers to ones that look like homework?
All questions should be treated the same, even if they are homework.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
|
|
|
|
|
I'm sure we've had this debate before!
Homework questions are set to test the student's understanding of the course material. If someone else does their homework for them, then you're only testing their ability to cheat.
Students who are unable to do their homework should be asking their teacher for help. That way, the teacher is aware that the student is struggling, and may be able to offer additional tutoring. If lots of students are struggling, the teacher might adjust their approach, or go back over some of the troublesome material.
Students who are unable to complete their final year project for their CS degree shouldn't pass the course. If they pass without understanding the material, they'll only end up getting a job that they're not qualified to do, and they'll almost certainly still expect someone else to do their work for them.
In other words, give a man a fish...
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
modified 11-Nov-14 11:27am.
|
|
|
|
|
Richard Deeming wrote: If someone else does their homework for them
I certainly wasn't suggesting we do the work for them. But we should help.
Again, how is it different than helping someone who is employed. Should we be doing their work for them? They won't learn if we do that.
It seems that all your arguments for not helping homework could also be applied to someone who is looking for help on their work.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
|
|
|
|
|
RyanDev wrote: It seems that all your arguments for not helping homework could also be applied to someone who is looking for help on their work.
As I see it, the main difference is that homework questions are based on the material covered in the course. The student is supposed to be able to answer the question based on what they've just been studying.
With work-based questions, the person asking the question might never have encountered the particular problem they're facing before. There might not even be a solution.
RyanDev wrote: Should we be doing their work for them?
No, which is why we have the "not a question" reporting option. If someone posts a list of requirements and expects us to write the code for them, the question will be closed.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
|
|
|
|
|
Richard Deeming wrote: The student is supposed to be able to answer the question based on what they've just been studying.
And the employee is supposed to be able do their job. 
I still say we try to help people as much as we can.
Richard Deeming wrote: No, which is why we have the "not a question" reporting option. If someone posts a list of requirements and expects us to write the code for them, the question will be closed.
Agreed.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
|
|
|
|
|
RyanDev wrote: And the employee is supposed to be able do their job.
If you work for a company where you're only ever asked to do things that you should already know how to do, then I don't know whether to envy you or pity you! 
As an employee, you'll probably be asked to do things that you haven't just spent six weeks studying, and which might not even have a sensible solution.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
|
|
|
|
|
Richard Deeming wrote: you haven't just spent six weeks studying
You studied in school? I pity you. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
|
|
|
|
|
My feeling is that (with the exception of spammers and trolls, and we have mechanisms for dealing with them) everything there is a question to someone. It may be badly stated (or not stated at all) but they wouldn't have posted it if they didn't need help.
OK, some of it is "do my homework" - but even that needs a reply:
We do not do your homework: it is set for a reason. It is there so that you think about what you have been told, and try to understand it. It is also there so that your tutor can identify areas where you are weak, and focus more attention on remedial action.
Try it yourself, you may find it is not as difficult as you think!
Because sometimes, that starts a discussion: they are so "rabbit in the headlights" that they don't how where, or how to start. And those discussions can be some of the most rewarding: you can get to see someone's brain start thinking, possibly for the first time in their entire life!
"Not a question" stops that happening: it closes an avenue completely and prevents any further discussions.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
|
|
|
|
|
So, as I said: a new "homework" reporting option, possibly with a separate list of homework questions where members are encouraged to provide hints, not full solutions.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
|
|
|
|
|
It looks like we need to have some form of purgatory for questions. If there were somewhere to "quarantine" sub-par questions, but which would be available to people to encourage improvement if possible, then we might be able to overcome this wave of closures. I would expect that this would trigger a notification to the user that their question was being moved due to issues around the question, which would give them a chance to fix it. The odd thing is that we have a different behaviour between articles and questions, so an article can be resurrected, but a question can't.
Oh, and moving the question back out of purgatory would rely on people voting that the question was sufficiently improved to warrant moving back to the main codebase. Obviously, if people want to answer the question while it's in this purgatory place, that would be their own prerogative.
|
|
|
|
|
Surely the act of answering is an indication that the question is understandable?
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
|
|
|
|
|
Not necessarily. How many questions have you seen where answers have been given that are totally off base because people are making assumptions about what the question is actually asking?
|
|
|
|
|
Good idea for "unclear" and "not a question" questions. Not so much for spam, off-topic or reposts.
Did you see my previous suggestions[^] for improving the reporting options?
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
|
|
|
|
|
A combination of the two approaches could definitely work. My suggestions were aimed purely at the "could be a legitimate question with a bit of effort" ones.
|
|
|
|
|
I like the idea
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
|
|
|
|
|
A problem that comes up occasionally is that a discussion can be started in the comments, and then suddenly the question is closed and we can't continue the discussion.
Most recently, Bill W asked me a question and in order to answer him I had to piggy-back on one of his Lounge posts:
http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?msg=4941233#xx4941233xx[^]
because this question was closed
help with code in C#[^]
Yes, it's a homework question, but that's no reason to close it; just don't give provide the answer.
A 1-vote is probably sufficient, not a report.
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks, Piebald, I replied to your comment on the Lounge post.
« I am putting myself to the fullest possible use which is all, I think, that any conscious entity can ever hope to do » HAL (Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer) in "2001, A Space Odyssey"
|
|
|
|
|
Just a small suggestion, (if has been suggested before, forgive me I haven't read the whole thread)
When a question is posted can you not check for some basic things, such as:
- is there code present (check on the 'code' tags)
- is it a one line text
- ...
And display a message making suggestions as to how to better format his question, such as 'you haven't submitted any code, we can better help you if we see the code that is causing the error' (or something like that, I'm sure your English is better than mine)
But still allow the user to pass on without editing it (since there are valid cases where no code should be posted or ...).
That way, the people who have 'learned' to post a good question won't be bothered by it and those that haven't will (hopefully) read the messages and in time ask better questions.
No idea at if this possible, but it was the first thing that popped into my head as a possible (half) solution, after reading your post.
|
|
|
|
|
General 
News 
Suggestion 
Question 
Bug 
Answer 
Joke 
Praise 
Rant 
Admin 
Submit an article or tip
