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OriginalGriff wrote: and they don't generally listen and respond well to criticism
FTFY
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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True but only
if(upper_managment_recognizes_current_direction_is_wrong && is_willing_to_support_change) cause_change;
else leave;
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Member 11002765 wrote: else leave
I say that is a cowardice response. Not saying you are a coward but I think people quit too easily without actually trying to improve things. Yes, you need management on board but don't' fall for the cliches which say management will never change. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Great comment!
I agree that there are things that a person can change that doesn't require management being on board but, for the most part, without management buy-in, the scope of that change is very limited. Pretty much limited to changing yourself and your personal practices.
As far as the cliche of "management will never change", I didn't state, or imply that management wouldn't change. From personal experience, I know that they can and are often willing to change. The fact that they can is inherent in the "if/else" statement. If I thought that they couldn't change then I would have simply stated "leave".
Also from personal experience, to have long-lasting, institutionalized change in a sizable organization, management has to be a part of that change.
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Member 11002765 wrote: without management buy-in, the scope of that change is very limited
Agreed. I just think too many people assume management won't change or don't know how to approach management about changing and just quit without ever trying.
Member 11002765 wrote: I didn't state, or imply that management wouldn't change.
I know. I guess my response was more generalized and in response to many of the other posts where quitting was the first suggestion.
Member 11002765 wrote: to have long-lasting, institutionalized change in a sizable organization, management has to be a part of that change.
No doubt. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: don't' fall for the cliches which say management will never change
Where are these places?
I've never seen one.
Management doesn't need to change, you're the one with the problem, is the attitude I've always gotten.
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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BrainiacV wrote: Where are these places?
i believe most places have managers willing to do what is right. Sometimes it requires you to figure out how to speak their language. Perhaps I'm just being naive, but in my experience you can get change if you work on it.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: i believe most places have managers willing to do what is right.
Again, I ask, where are these places?
Aside from myself and one manager I had in my long career (and they fired him), all have been insecure, egotistical tyrants, who view any criticisms (doesn't matter if it is posed as a suggestion) as a direct challenge to their authority.
Most prefer to rule by fear and intimidation, the rest, indifference, they're the manager, you aren't.
The one great manager I had that was willing to listen and work with you, was fired though the actions of the other sharks in the pool.
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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BrainiacV wrote: Most prefer to rule by fear and intimidation, the rest, indifference, they're the manager, you aren't.
Hm. What did you do to try and change things?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: What did you do to try and change things?
You're missing the point. These people are thick as a brick.
There was one instance where the manager espoused this weird idea of how she wanted source code control to be used. Myself and the eleven others on the team tried to explain to her that was not how source code worked. Her reply, "That's how it will work here!"
So the weight of opinion/knowledge was totally ignored.
Another time I had written a universal sortation package in FORTH (the company standard), it handled infinite diverter types with infinite geometries, and a new manager came in and decreed all programs were to be written in 'C', to be more "commercial." I tried to explain the program could not be converted. FORTH allows you to modify the compiler as the program compiles. I wasn't playing games, but creating a dynamic preprocessor that generated data structures and populated them with values, depending on the code.
No matter, the decision was made, logic had no bearing on it, even after I tried to walk him through the code to show how it worked. He admitted he didn't understand half of what I said (I'll estimates less than a third), but his mind was made up.
Before you say I failed because I befuddled him, he didn't understand the concepts of how our systems worked, he was using what I call "Management By Magazine Article Logic" in that he had heard 'C' was a more popular language and that is what he was basing his decision on.
So he threw away a program that solved all their problems, past, present, and future.
I could write a book giving you more examples.
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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jeeves77 wrote: Theres always nights and weekends right?
At this moment I would leave for good...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Funny how, if you think about it, it's not Agile that's the problem, it's your leadership and management. In other words, it's the people not using the processes correctly that is the problem. And ironically, it's those processes that are intended to specifically avoid the problems you are having!
WTF is wrong with those idiots?
Marc
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God, our CEO, decided we would go "agile", they got in a permanent trainer team as they (he) wants the entire culture, management, operations, devs, the lot to go agile.
Trainer gets a bunch of devs together to explain the bones of the new environment. Says the idea is to have all the people involved in the project sitting near each other to encourage involvement, I fell off the chair laughing. We are scattered over 3 floors and that is just the dev team.
That was 6 months ago, nothing has changed!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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jeeves77 wrote: Now our process is "agile". And by "agile" I mean
we'll tell everyone that our process agile and then explain what it means. Other than that, it's business as usual.
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jeeves77 wrote: an environment teetering on the edge of toxicity.
Sadly, it's done teetering. 
/ravi
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In all seriousness, the process your team is following is neither agile nor waterfall. It's non-existent. 
/ravi
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Reminds me of this[^].
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Any organization is like a tree full of monkeys. The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes.
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::Maxxx looks around at his fellow developers, cautiously... Which one of you guys is this Jeeves Fellow?::
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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Makes me glad that I'm a one man team with management who has no clue how to coding works.
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It could be MUCH worse. You could not have a job at all, like myself ... but I'm not here for a sympathy party.
I've occupied positions of management as well as positions of programmer (in all various forms). When in a programming position (the nature of which was senior enough to allow me to actually communicate with "management") I took the position of educator. You see, people can become management, usually, not so much because of skill, but because of perseverance. In effect, they were so insecure with their capabilities that when their previous boss finally said "WTF", realized he/she could get a better job somewhere else, and told the current company to FOAD, it is possible that his blooming idiot of a mentor actually made it into management. (Obviously, this is a hypothetical situation ... but it has happened to me several times ... with a couple of different outcomes).
In any event, if you ever want to dethrone your resident idiot (RI), you need proof. Therefore, you too must embrace the role of educator. First, every time you talk to the RI and he/she (IT) publicly proclaims their idiocy, make a note of it (or multiple its). Then, in your spare time, (usually on weekends or Holidays , write an article that first, documents the fact that IT said what IT said and then describe, with references, why IT is misinformed ... most importantly, document why this particular misconception is hurting your team's productivity and thereby the profitability of the company). With the last being the most salient point. Remember, your actual audience, is the RI's BOSS. Therefore, you cannot speak too much tech ... but enough to illustrate that the RI is actually an RI.
Keep the NATURE of this documentation a TOTAL secret. Communicate only with the RI, via email, with the express understanding that you are trying to HELP IT. However, never forget, you are in a hostile environment. You may think you have friends but there is always that one, insecure "helmut head", that is looking to make his/her way into your position via your decaying corpse. Don't give them any ammunition with which they can expedite your demise.
There are two possible outcomes:
1) Your RI is not really an RI at all ... they will take your advice, incorporate it into their management style and graduate from RI to the BEST friend you will EVER have in management. Not to mention, you will have the beginnings of a great tutorial to be used by the next IT hiring on-board.
2) Your RI is really a "BIG" RI. When this occurs, IT may push back. Be forgiving, this "push back" is exactly what you need to commit regiside (the killing of a King ... just an FYI ... no intent to insult). Continue on with your crusade ... email after email after email. Be loving and gentle ... humble ... courteous to a fault. And, never stop ... documenting everything. Sooner or later, you will have what you need ... to dethrone a "King".
Remember (this is the most important concept I can convey to you), most great technical groups are MADE ... not acquired via a successful interview and ultimate hiring by another organization. Instead of taking the role of heckler, adopt the role of mentor.
Trying to find nirvana by jumping from company to company will, frequently, find you jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Grow your TEAM!
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excellent point. At the time I am reading this I am contemplating if I should jump ship in a similar situation. Your comments are weighing heavily as to whether this is the right thing to do. I will weigh any incoming offers on their merit and not on how jacked up my current process is, and I will make a wiser choice. Thanks.
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jeeves77 wrote:
I could write a novel, but nonetheless. I once wondered what it was like to work on a dysfunctional team, but now I think I know.
It could always be worse right? Right?!!
Father had a saying "Leave while you still have something nice to say about the place".
Mike
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The trouble with the word "agile" is that many people interpret it as meaning "Hey, we just do whatever we feel like doing, and the poor suckers who work for us have to live with it!"
What your company appears to be doing is so far away from agile that they should rename it arthritis.
Interestingly, the cure for most of the symptoms of the disease you appear to be suffering from would be to adopt agile methods -- the real ones.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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