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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: CodeProject is' into a code service...
Seriously? This was the reason for deleting the question.
First and foremost, he was a newbie, he posted in correct forum( welcome change!!). Next his question was not bad by any standards.
You are not "Sheriff" to make that call to delete it. You can leave approriate comment and give your reason or discuss it here.
Bill gave a valuable answer and this would have helped all and other future coders.
Whats up with trigger friendly fingers. Lets show some restraint
cheers,
Super
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Too much of good is bad,mix some evil in it
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I think you (and Bill too - more understandably) got a bit too fat...
I'm not 'God' or 'Sheriff', and I didn't deleted/closed the question - I have no that authority!!!
All I did is reporting the question as 'Unclear or incomplete', it closed because I wasn't the only one who thought so...
With all the respect to you and Bill I hold myself the right to do so, when I'm think this is proper...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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My only grievance is the reason you gave for closure. You said that this site is not a "code service".
'Unclear or incomplete' option was not used in the right spirit. There was other ways to put your point after seeing that few of them have answered it.
Idea of CP is to encourage more coders to ask help and get help.
cheers,
Super
------------------------------------------
Too much of good is bad,mix some evil in it
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super wrote: 'Unclear or incomplete' option was not used in the right spirit.
That's a clear statement and I'm ready to accept, that I did a mistake - mea culpa will do it?
However from here to all the accusations I got, just because I came forward to discuss the subject, I can't see the connection...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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I have nothing to comment on intention or attitiude cos I do not know anybody at a personal level.
But for the above scenario , You have responed to my reasoning and thats more than enough for me and its a closed issue
Its to time to move on.
cheers,
Super
------------------------------------------
Too much of good is bad,mix some evil in it
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How about, rather than a blanket removal of questions, we try and help the OP to revise their question in a more appropriate form. I'm getting the impression from this thread that the nuclear option was the first option.
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My vote came AFTER there were several comments on the question to improve and also AFTER OP commented on Bill's first version of his answer...
As you know we need 3 votes (I was the first) to close a question and the votes are bounded to that version of the question, so OP had the (at least theoretical) opportunity to response and improve AND REMOVE the votes...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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How long between the first request to change, and the downvotes? This theoretical ability is absurd. Suppose that someone posts a question at the end of their workday and they come in the following morning, all fresh faced and eager to see what the responses are to their work question. Now imagine whether or not that person will ever come back if the response to their first ever question here is to close it.
Sadly, I see the same sense of self important "patrolling" going on in QA that I see in SO - the precise reason I stopped helping out in SO, because noobs were treated with contempt. We all have to remember that we all started out once, and that it took the help of people with patience to improve. If we shut down noobs because they don't meet a standard they aren't aware of, then we might as well close up shop altogether.
Perhaps the comments to change the details should also include some instructions on how to change the question, and what is expected of a good question. Help the OP to see what the problem is and give them a reasonable chance to change their post. It's all about taking that little bit extra effort to help out. As it is, you've just lost Bill who has far more patience with the people who reply in QA than I do. How long before all that's left are people who are pure rep-trolls, and who will post any old crap just to get some points?
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With all the respect I can't see how you came to the conclusion that I'm a 'self important', 'pure rep-troll' who 'just lost Bill'...
However to the point of it...If I think about the true essence of your words, the 'Unclear or incomplete', 'Off topic' and 'Not a question' reports are have to be gone, or changed a way to force comment...
For now I'm using them as a tool next to comments, when I find it proper, with no second thought...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Did I say you were rep-trolling? No, I didn't. You did lose Bill though.
The point I was making is that once all others have been driven out, the only one's who will be left in there are the people who think it's their duty to patrol the place, and the only one's who will be answering are people who drop in and out to amass points without caring about whether they are adding value.
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Pete, I'm so with you and Bill on this.
I can't say I made a conscious decision to stop answering in QA. I just don't feel like it anymore.
I had spent some time answering a question that was poorly worded, but it was clear to me. Quite simply, if there's an answer then I can't see any reason why a question should be deleted. In my case the question was the 3rd or 4th time I was at the receiving end of he who shall not be named's brand of vitriol. My understanding is that Griff stopped for similar reasons. As I see it, there are two possible outcomes: The one you outline or; The rules change.
I don't see myself wandering back to QA any time soon.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Hi Phil, while I have no "agenda" that any CP member should take an active role in QA, I find the fact that you, and others, including the likes of Marc Clifton, have "bounced off" QA for one reason or another disturbing, and feel that is a loss for the CP community as a whole.
I truly hope we (CP collectively including staff) can identify any structural problems with QA and do what's possible (without creating some surveillance-state chimera) to make every member who decides to participate "at home."
cheers, Bill
«I'm asked why doesn't C# implement feature X all the time. The answer's always the same: because no one ever designed, specified, implemented, tested, documented, shipped that feature. All six of those things are necessary to make a feature happen. They all cost huge amounts of time, effort and money.» Eric Lippert, Microsoft, 2009
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Bill,
I've posted on other threads about QA, including one or two that you've initiated. I've shared my thoughts on what I think QA should be/could be. I just don't agree with those that are trying to make it a competitor to SO, SO owns that space.
The biggest and most opinionated bully made MVP this year (he may have been in previous years too). I guess I just don't like bullies, I was bullied at school and as an adult I consider it my duty to stand up to them!
I retire in 9 weeks. I've been a member for quite a few years (mainly lurking as I didn't have the time). Things are winding down at work, so I've been a lot more active in the past few months. I'm not sure if I'll be an active member once I've hung up my boots, so I don't feel justified in campaigning strongly. I've shared my opinions and it's up for the community to act or not. I believe that, at some level, QA is broken; although there are many who ask and are given, there is some proportion that is not served well.
Chris and others on here have my deepest respect. It would be unfair to name names as I'd be bound to miss some. At this point I feel it right to take a step back and let those others take up the fight.
Cheers, right back at you, Phil.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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May I remind you of your own words:
"To be honest, I did voted that question as no-question AFTER reading your solution and the comments on it... The reason is that, IMHO, in this case you turned the 'wonderful, vibrant, pro-social, community that CodeProject is' into a code service... OP didn't got nothing except a solution and for me is less than nothing in these cases..." This indicates that your reason for removing the post was because you did not like my behavior, and you used your (evidently) psychic powers to decide the OP didn't get anything out of it.
So, you ignored the fact that other CodeProject members thought enough of the question to post code, that there was some interaction between the OP and other members, and just decided to nuke the thread.
How is it that you are so sure that newcomer Muthukumar-K-MK might not have turned out, in the future, to be an excellent CodeProject member ?
I think until you get clear about what your role as a CodeProject member is, you should abstain from voting.
This behavior of yours is a disgrace. And your attitude, as evinced by your mocking repetition of my words about CodeProject ("you turned the 'wonderful, vibrant, pro-social, community that CodeProject is' into a code service") is just beneath contempt.
You were "man enough" to take public responsibility for your action; I'd like to see you equally take responsibility for the consequence of your action.
«I'm asked why doesn't C# implement feature X all the time. The answer's always the same: because no one ever designed, specified, implemented, tested, documented, shipped that feature. All six of those things are necessary to make a feature happen. They all cost huge amounts of time, effort and money.» Eric Lippert, Microsoft, 2009
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First of all I did not ignored the fact that you responded to OP - in fact the response of OP to your code and the total ignorance of the comments were parts of my decision...However in my vote has nothing global and/or personal about/against you or OP. My opinion is totally in that context of the question and even there it is only an opinion...
An for the consequences - I'm here and will face them too. I didn't do what I'm done out of evil thoughts...
(As for the quoting part. I see that this was hard on you, but on that you have to believe me - not really have, but I have no choice to say it otherwise - but was no mockery intended, and as I'm reading it now again I can't see that mockery...Remember that I'm not a native English and I read and write these sentences in an other language, before translating them)
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Bill,
I can understand your frustration. I hope you don't get this bad, but I think it is time to let this thread go. Note: I don't mean the point raised in the thread, I mostly agree with you.
But, to be honest, I think you are not going to get anything else than increase your frustration or have a not so productive discussion. My advice... have a tee or a walk, calm down and have a while in the lounge to relax. It is not worth to get mad. [Joke] Besides, you need to keep an eye on your blood pressure. At your age... you know   [/Joke]
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I appreciate the ("blessed are the peacemakers") "spirit" of your remarks, but let me assure you that my blood pressure has been, and is, fine 
While it is not "pleasant" to have said what I have said on this thread, what I have said has been said "dispassionately" ... whether you believe that, or not: well, I have no choice there, do I ?
Never once have I imagined that anyone on this thread, or anyone on CP, is other than a deeply spiritual human being: to object to behaviorr is not to imply "condemning" the total character of a person.
Conflict is not necessarily unhealthy, if the wounds are not mortal.
cheers, Bill
«I'm asked why doesn't C# implement feature X all the time. The answer's always the same: because no one ever designed, specified, implemented, tested, documented, shipped that feature. All six of those things are necessary to make a feature happen. They all cost huge amounts of time, effort and money.» Eric Lippert, Microsoft, 2009
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Hi,
I agree with you that the question was quite poor.
On the other hand, I can fully understand the frustration of Bill, investing time to see how it gets vanished.
This thema has been discussed a several times. I was one reporting such questions as "not a question" or "unclear/incomplete" as well. But opinions (like Pete O'Hanlon's in this thread and OriginalGriff and other people I respect in other converstations about the same point) got me thinking and changed my mind about how I report things.
I agree with your opinion about the "just code solutions" without a tiny debate or some thoughts to the enquirer, but I do respect the efforts and the time invested by other members.
That's why I give a time period before doing anything when I see such a question.
If people ask or comment and the enquirer gives answers, then I edit the question adding that additional information and tell him how to improve the quality for the next time. If no answer from OP in some days... then I clean up. One thing is new people that doesn't know how to do it "best", other are lazy people, and the one I don't like are the second. But the only way to distinguish between a newbie and a "not deserving help" user is patience and see what happens in the thread. Then decide. But... if there are other people already giving solutions, and the solutions are worth then I do not report the question although I would like it. Maximum I give a 1 and leave a comment.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Good advises - thank you...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Bill,
When you submitted your answer what happened? Did the system simply refuse to attach the answer to the question? Was there an error message?
The system should allow you to answer, but if the question is closed then your answer would appear closed too. However, you should have the power to simply re-open the question and undo the aggravation.
Seems your frustration should be with us and our code, not necessarily the community.
Also, on a broader note: I'm not a fan of answering questions that show little or no effort in the asking. "Little or no" is subjective, true, but the lower the quality of the questions, the less motivation there is for the general population of good devs to answer. This, more than anything, affects the community as a whole.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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I am, however, a fan of guiding new members to improving their questions and making them valuable members of the site.
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Sometimes, though the "low quality of the question" comes because the asker is clearly not a native English speaker and can barely make what they do say understood, let alone ask a fully-formed and coherent query. And, it seems, that other non-native-English speaking members are then nuking the apparently errant question. Most likely because their translation skills are lacking themselves. Going forward, it might be good to ask these members to refrain from voting on such questions and instead leave a question asking for clarification.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein
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TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote: And, it seems, that other non-native-English speaking members are then nuking the apparently errant question.
I have not observed this, but I admit I have not made any systematic study of "what gets nuked," either.
«I'm asked why doesn't C# implement feature X all the time. The answer's always the same: because no one ever designed, specified, implemented, tested, documented, shipped that feature. All six of those things are necessary to make a feature happen. They all cost huge amounts of time, effort and money.» Eric Lippert, Microsoft, 2009
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Well, neither have I made such a study, but going by the English deficiencies of Kornfeld and other members like him, it's not hard to come to such a (maybe invalid) conclusion.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein
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Chris Maunder wrote: When you submitted your answer what happened? Did the system simply refuse to attach the answer to the question? Was there an error message?
Hi Chris,
The question was "open" when I submitted my first comment to the OP, open when I wrote the first version of my "solution," open when I heard back from the OP re the first solution, open when I wrote the revision of my solution. There was no error.Chris Maunder wrote: I'm not a fan of answering questions that show little or no effort in the asking
I'm not disposed to answer most such questions, either, but, I make an exception for first-time posters on CP, and, sometimes, if a solution has been posted and I think the same result could be achieved in another way ... that might be valuable for other people to know ... I do respond with code.Chris Maunder wrote: Seems your frustration should be with us and our code, not necessarily the community.
Well, I do think QA is in need of structural reform, and I have made several specific proposals on this forum over the last few years, however, in this case, I think the issue is member behavior, not CP structure.
thanks, Bill
«I'm asked why doesn't C# implement feature X all the time. The answer's always the same: because no one ever designed, specified, implemented, tested, documented, shipped that feature. All six of those things are necessary to make a feature happen. They all cost huge amounts of time, effort and money.» Eric Lippert, Microsoft, 2009
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