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It does remind me of Billy and Johnny[^]
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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We know a song about that, don't we?
I've actually said that several times during meetings, using the same vocal tones.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Because they are talking as if they are addressing a group of five-year old children.
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Well, the Info page says this: "Join 31,531 Students".
A good percent of them will be more than 5/10 years old, isn't it? 
Agree, it is not that great; but may be a starting point
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Practice.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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panda-kh wrote: Does this kind of book exist?
Oh yes![^]
I think you need to narrow down what sort of graphic design you want to learn, and search for an appropriate book.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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That might sound logical, but you can't learn art from a book.
E.g.
-- No-one can teach you to write until you're highly literate.
-- No-one can teach you how to paint until you know how your hand works with brushes.
You have to work at it by yourself, becoming competent in at least the basic stuff, before you'll even understand the language that teachers (or books) are using.
The first steps are practice, practice, and practice.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: That might sound logical, but you can't learn art from a book.
Fortunately the OP wants to learn graphic design, so that's OK
Mark_Wallace wrote: No-one can teach you to write until you're highly literate.
That's not true. At The Boy's school, for example, they actually teach kids to write before they have reading lessons.
But I guess you meant writing as in writing novels.
Again I disagree. But whatever, the OP specifically said he had done the 'using the tool' learning (so knows how to 'write') and he's probably seen some great graphic design (highly literate) so bob's your uncle!
Mark_Wallace wrote: No-one can teach you how to paint until you know how your hand works with brushes.
Again, the OP has done that bit.
Mark_Wallace wrote: You have to work at it by yourself, becoming competent in at least the basic stuff, before you'll even understand the language that teachers (or books) are using.
Rubbish. How do you learn how to pick up a bruch, mix colours, draw perspective, draw straight lines, circles, break down a composition into constituent parts, magic ratios etc. etc.
they are taught
Books are available for all sorts of levels - including introductory ones where they explain terms and have glossaries etc.!
Mark_Wallace wrote: The first steps are practice, practice, and practice.
As with almost everything, practicing without feedback and guidance can lead to bad practice.
I think what you are getting at is that you can't teach an artist to be a great artist - and this I think is very true but there's no reason you can't learn the techniques of graphic artistry from a book or course.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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_Maxxx_ wrote: At The Boy's school, for example, they actually teach kids to write before they have reading lessons.
They teach them to write down words that they can already speak, not how to write -- not how to describe things in such a way that the reader the text is intended for will understand it fully and without effort.
OK, let's try to simplify this to brass roots.
If you want to learn to draw, the first thing you have to do is pick up a pencil, and start drawing. And draw everything.
If you cannot reasonably copy a curve that you see in real life, reading about drawing will not help you.
Your hand has to be able to trace the basic outlines that enter your mind. Until your hand can do that to a reasonable degree, there are no teachable techniques that are of any use to you -- you can read as many books as you like, but none of them will be of any use to you.
Once you can draw basic shapes, proving that the pencil goes where you mean it to, you can get anatomy books to learn the details of drawing people, or drawing books on any other theme -- if you don't believe me, ask Giotto.
And graphic design is art. It is creative, not mechanical, and requires the same eye-to-hand abilities as any other visual art. Once you're a way along the road with those abilities, you can start learning the particular skills required.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: They teach them to write down words that they can already speak, not how to write -- not how to describe things in such a way that the reader the text is intended for will understand it fully and without effort.
Well, you're wrong, as that is not what they do at The Boy's school
The initial writing is all about the art of construction letters (oh, yes, they teach art!)
For example, at a very young age they may draw a swan. The teacher will write the word Swan but their task is just to draw the bird. they are helped and encouraged - with limited resources (e.g. minimum colours available, specific paper size, a design to base theirs on *but without copying)
The swan will, as you can imagine, look S shaped.
They will probably have a story read to them that involves a swan, too.
Then they may be asked to tell a story about the swan they have drawn. And in doing so the teacher may say things like "Rather than saying 'the swan was nice' try thinking of a better word - nice gets used such a lot and another word might let the rest of the class understand the story a bit better."
Which is exactly Quote: how to describe things in such a way that the reader the text is intended for will understand it fully and without effort.
Mark_Wallace wrote: If you cannot reasonably copy a curve that you see in real life, reading about drawing will not help you.
Again, the OP specifically said he had learned how to use the tools (Photoshop) and he doesn't want to read about drawing he wants to read about graphic design; I'm no expert but I'd think that involves not how to draw a curve (which he knows how to do) but how to make words stand out, how to draw the eye to the message etc. Composition.
Mark_Wallace wrote: OK, let's try to simplify this to brass roots.
BTW - it's "Grass roots" - just sayin'
Mark_Wallace wrote: Once you can draw basic shapes, proving that the pencil goes where you mean it to, you can get anatomy books to learn the details of drawing people, or drawing books on any other theme
And the OP said he had done the 'basic shapes' stuff so now he wants books on graphic design. You seem to be agreeing here?
Mark_Wallace wrote: ask Giotto.
He's dead, mate, so can't do that.
Mark_Wallace wrote: And graphic design is art. It is creative, not mechanical, and requires the same eye-to-hand abilities as any other visual art.
Absolutely.
Well, not absolutely, but I see what you mean. In fact, knowing how to wield a paintbrush is not, I think, necessary for an artist to be, for example, a sculptor. Similarly someone may be a fabulous Photoshop artist, but no good at charcoal. But the innate skills required are at least similar.
Mark_Wallace wrote: Once you're a way along the road with those abilities, you can start learning the particular skills required.
And again, the OP said he was a way along the road with his skills, and wanted a book to help him learn graphic design.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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_Maxxx_ wrote: BTW - it's "Grass roots" - just sayin'
Words are my art. If you don't like the way one artist uses his tools, buy work by other artists -- i.e. don't correct something unless you know it to be an error.
_Maxxx_ wrote: the OP said he was a way along the road with his skills
No, he said that he had learned which buttons to click to activate tools.
If he was following a book, it means that he has had precious little practice (and will probably have forgotten three-quarters of it, anyway).
Knowing what and where the tools are is no indicator of one's proficiency in using them.
He needs to practice.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: Words are my art. If you don't like the way one artist uses his tools, buy work by other artists -- i.e. don't correct something unless you know it to be an error.
Mark_Wallace wrote: No, he said that he had learned which buttons to click to activate tools.
No, he said Quote: I know how to use most of the tool in Photoshop.
Or was that your unique, personalised use of the English language?
Mark_Wallace wrote: Knowing what and where the tools are is no indicator of one's proficiency in using them.
Aha! A fact!
Mark_Wallace wrote: He needs to practice.
How do you know that from his post? he may be, for all you know, a professional painter, a graffiti artist of some note, a sculptor, potter, novelist - or anything.
All you know is what he wrote and asked, and as ever with the twonks that inhabit this site, instead of getting a helpful answer he gets this patronising twaddle.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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There is nothing patronising about telling someone that he has to practice if he wants to become proficient at something -- quite the opposite, in fact; it is a fact of life.
There is something wrong with telling someone that he can learn skills by reading a book, however. Skills are gained by practicing, not by reading.
Let's say that he does things your way, and reads another book.
Two years down the line, he will have to read both books again, because it will all be, at best, in the margins of his memory.
If he spends a few months practising, however, before picking up another book, the chances are that the knowledge and abilities will be his for life.
Now I know that, as a developer, you believe that reading a book is enough to pick up new skills, but that is because you are a developer, so all your main, core, basic skills were learned when you, like the rest of us, were having fun slogging away at your first couple of languages in your metaphorical mother's basement, so you can pick up a new language by reading a book on it.
And it's true, you probably can pick up a whole new language by reading a book -- I've done it myself, so I know damned fine that it can be done -- but that is because all the basic, core, main skills you need are already in your mind and your hands.
Learning a new profession, however, is another thing entirely, especially if it is a profession that fits into the world of art as well as it fits into the world of business.
i.e. You have to spend a whole new bunch of time in your metaphorical mother's basement, slogging away, practising and experimenting.
Now, rather than let the guy read another book and forget everything within a couple of years, encourage him to do the mother's basement thing -- and don't insult people who give him the right advice.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Firstly, if you felt insulted I apologize unreservedly - just my artistic use of words.
Mark_Wallace wrote: Now I know that, as a developer, you believe that reading a book is enough to pick up new skills, but that is because you are a developer, so all your main, core, basic skills were learned when you, like the rest of us, were having fun slogging away at your first couple of languages in your metaphorical mother's basement, so you can pick up a new language by reading a book on it.
You know nothing of the sort.
Put simply, you are wrong. Learning stuff from books is useful - not without practice, nobody ever suggested that, but books, especially those aimed at beginners, often guide the reader in exactly what to practice.
For the record, I do a number of 'arty' things (painting, drawing, writing, a little clay modeling occasionally) and I have found, at times, books to be exceedingly helpful in learning techniques.
Sure, having been guided, I then have to practice to make perfect, but going in blindly and just 'trying stuff' I would never have gotten where I am. (which isn't very good, I am the first to admit!)
Take an example: I wanted to design some animated cartoon-like characters for a game, I got a book on creating game animation - it showed me some great techniques (like onion-skinning as an example) that I wouldn't have known to practice as I hadn't heard of it.
Another example (I find examples so much more useful): I go out and buy all the gear to be an artist - brushes, paints, oils, canvas, palette knives etc. etc.
Now, I ask online if someone can recommend a book on painting.
Someone answers that I should practice. Practice what? I have a load of tools, I can certainly squirt paint onto a palette and mix it with a brush, slap it on some canvas - but it looks like crap! What the hell is this palette knife for? I can use it (the box it came in had basic instructions) but when should I use it?
I mean, I want to paint a landscape - should I paint the sky first? Should I paint dark colours first? Should I leave each layer to dry before doing the next, or slap wet on wet? Some of the paint is a bit thick - what can I do ?
Bought a book.
Answered the questions!
Now I can practice the techniques it recommended!
Of course, I could have decided not to buy the book, and simply learn by my mistakes. Commendable. Bloody expensive, and really, be honest, it's re-inventing the wheel! I can create my own style when I know the basics.
Mark_Wallace wrote: give him the right advice.
He didn't ask for your advice, he asked for recommended books.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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Instead of learning from book, try yourself to be creative
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Look at existing designs/websites/applications/whatever, and steal the ideas you like! 
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I second the recommendation for this book. It gives the non designer a really good grounding in the basics of layout and typography
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I found the book "Don't Make Me Think" By Steve Krug a good read. It had simple guide lines and ideas for UI design. Better than nothing. Also "Designing Interfaces Patterns for Effective Interaction Design " By Jenifer Tidwell
I think the authors both have web sites that covers a lot of what the books cover; if you can not find the books or they are unavailable. I found them at my library.
Good luck.
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Graphic design is an art, not a science or technique. There is a visual language that you can learn from a book, but the aesthetics of whether a particular design is attractive or not is art (and very subjective).
That said, learning the visual language will enable you to look at the work of others and start to break it apart into it constituent elements. Analyze it, decided what you do and don't like about it, and how you'd change it to improve it. This won't make you a graphic designer, but it will help you start to develop a personal graphic style.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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panda-kh wrote: But my question its: I need to find a book that teach me a tip or trick of
combining the technique that I have learn to produce an attractive result
(attractive graphic design)
I'd like to suggest this book:
Design Basics Index by Jim Krause
ISBN-13: 978-1581805017
I bought mine at Half Price Books, but Amazon also shows it as available for a reasonable price. (HPB is a brick & mortar outlet owned by Amazon.)
It is about composition and concepts and is totally tool agnostic. The design patterns he demonstrates will work in Photoshop, brush and canvas, or printed flyer or poster design. With each design principal he suggests exercises for practice. Without going into a full review I've found it very useful. I keep it within arms reach at my workstation.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1581805012/ref=rdr_ext_tmb[^]
Kayaker
"No good deed goes unpunished."
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panda-kh wrote: But my question its: I need to find a book that teach me a tip or trick of combining the technique that I have learn to produce an attractive result (attractive graphic design)
No book will teach you to create an attractive design, but there are some that will teach you how to create a reasonable graphic design, which, with some artsy skills, you can improve into an attractive design.
Fortunately, I've never needed such books! 
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Movie Quote Of The Day
Wax on, wax off
Which movie?
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