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W∴ Balboos wrote: To a great extent your tome proves my point.
Not at all. See below.
W∴ Balboos wrote: As for paid promotion of products being illegal
Again:
This is not about ads or ad-paid services at all! This is about manipulating a presumably neutral service. The Eu makes the point that Google, as a quasi-monopolist is obliged to keep that service neutral, i. e. not influenced in favor of certain companies. The EUs point, not mine. I won't bother reading up on EU law to find out about that. Anyway, the EU states that Google is breaking (monopolist?) laws. Google states it doesn't. That is what this case is about, not ads.
W∴ Balboos wrote: No one is making anyone use any search engine.
I've already pointed that one out: it isn't about anyone making people use Google, it is that Google is de facto in the position of a monopolist for the Search services in europe.
W∴ Balboos wrote: "In the case of Google" says so much about attitudes.
Maybe I haven't expressed myself well, but (a) this is not about my attitude at all, and (b) 'Google case' was just a reference to the legal case the EU made.
W∴ Balboos wrote: it's a pretense (or implication) that EU residents are incapable of making decisions
A fact. And not about EU residents, but residents all over the world, at least those without the required technical knowledge. And there are many of these!
Don't make the mistake to project your own depth of understanding on every person out there! I've talked to people over the web, even met some in games, who don't know the difference between logging off and switching off your computer! They may be online, but they get that far only because someone helped them get there - that doesn't mean they understand anything about it.
W∴ Balboos wrote: Switzerland's interests ...
Over the past years, there was a development leading to Switzerland potentially breaking up the Bilateral Agreements[^] with the EU. It hasn't quite happened yet, but I haven't noticed anyone stopping the process either. So don't tell me they're all brothers and sisters!
W∴ Balboos wrote: The toaster analogy
My point was that for many people devices with browsers are similar to microwaves and toasters: just some electrical device that does something if you press the right button! These same people will not understand the flexibility of their device: they do not understand the concept of "downloading an app", even if some well-meaning nephew does it for them, explaining it step by step. Neither will they understand their ability, let alone the reason, to choose different software for the same task, be it browsing, search, or whatever. They will be content with the knowledge of what buttons to press to perform their intended task. None of them will ever ask anyone how to change the search engine. Why should they? So noone will ever show them how to do it. Even if it's just one click away, the option may just as well not exist.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Over and Over the point is Made:
The EU expects Google to do people's thinking for them. It's up to Google (and every other person who interacts with anyone else, really) to anticipate every possible stupid thing that can be done by stupid people. If they miss any - sue them.
Don't forget to sue the dairies because they do not label milk with "If you leave this out for a week in warm weather you shouldn't drink it because it will taste nasty and make you sick". As for my TV ads analogy: it's true - and what if no one tells the Euro-Crowd that they can change the channels on their set? Then that station has a monopoly by this inane logic - and therefore should be sued if they express anything whatsoever that has options.
Or, for toilet tissue:
WARNING! DO NOT REUSE OR ATTEMPT TO CLEAN . . .
ESPECIALLY IF SOLD IN THE EUROPEAN UNION.
(Probably should be placed on each sheet, printed both sides).
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: The EU expects Google to do people's thinking for them.
You keep on arguing statements I never made. Whatever the reasons, Google Search is used by the majority of people in Europe, that makes it a monopolist service, and it made EU apply monopolist laws. There's no request for Google to do people's thinking, the EU just asks them to adhere to the law. That's all there is to it.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Stefan_Lang wrote: That's all there is to it.
Not At All
The fact the Users prefer there service WHEN OTHERS ARE AVAILABLE doesn't make them a monopolistic service.
Over and over you seem to accept that European Law says if your good at what you do you will make you suffer for it.
It all comes to a single point, my original point: don't even wait for the trial to start. If the EU files suit and starts the monkey trial witch-trial hearing: empty the bank accounts, close the business entities, and tell the EU to stuff their greed up their A$$es. That is, after all, my basic assertion when I started the thread.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Quote: The Eu makes the point that Google, as a quasi-monopolist is obliged to keep that service neutral, i. e. not influenced in favor of certain companies.
But this is a complete fiction. They are not obliged to do any such thing. This is a legal fantasy dreamed up by an envious, avaricious bureaucracy that actually has no right whatsoever to determine a private company's policies unless it is fraudulent or price fixing. Google has made no attempt to hide the fact that some results are 'sponsored' though obviously they are guilty of fixing prices ... at zero! We have not been deceived. We understand that costs must be met and take this into account when deciding whether to use Google, as we do Bing, and all the other search engines that have ever existed.
There simply is no precedent for this absurd charge. If I go to the Tourist Information Board here in the UK I know that they will only be recommending accommodation at places that have paid to be included in their 'approved list' and unlike search results there will be no alternative at all. So why hasn't this evil practice been stamped on by the EU? Because it's not a billion dollar company ripe for plundering. It's as simple as that!
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We are discussing definitions now. I may have used incorrect terms. Looking up on monopolies, there are several terms that are related to the situation: a "de facto Monopoly" would one created naturally, but it implies a 100% market share, therefore it's only theoretically possible. I have wrongly used that term for what is apparently called a Natural Monopoly[^] - that is the situation Google is in, regarding Search, in Europe. At least according to the EU.
You might also want to consider the legal definition of a monopoly[^] which is obviously based on the "Natural Monopoly", not the "de facto Monopoly".
As for no precedent, you are mistaken. Microsoft was already forced to pay in similar cases, and in one case it was forced to provide a netral way for users to pick an alternate browser on installation or first start of Windows, in the EU. This is not an EU thing either, check out the United States Antitrust law[^] - this link provides a number of cases where US legislation led to splitting of companies and prohibitive penalties. You might specialy be interested in the case "United States vs. Alcoa" (see Monopolization[^])
a monopoly can be deemed to exist depending on the size of the market. It was generally irrelevant how the monopoly was achieved since the fact of being dominant on the market was negative for competition.
So, this is neither fantasy nor absurd. Ok, you are free to dispute the latter, but we are talking about laws that do exist and have been applied for decades.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Please - I think, again, you clicked reply in response to the wrong person. Much as I dislike Google, I'm totally on their side in this action. The thread you were on had an adversarial view by stefan_lang. Please post these responses to him! It would be ever so much more useful.
The way you do this is open the actual item to which you wish to reply and then click reply.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I am no lawyer, and so I can't conjure up the relevant EU laws, but I happened to find something in US antitrust legislature that might interest you:
Quote: a monopoly can be deemed to exist depending on the size of the market. It was generally irrelevant how the monopoly was achieved since the fact of being dominant on the market was negative for competition
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law#Monopolization[^]
Whether or not the same applies in this EU vs. Google case is for the lawyers to decide. But you can't blame the EU for applying and protecting laws. You might just as well blame your local authorities for fining you after breaking a speed limit on a street even though you may not have imperiled anyone.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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So, having just returned from a sojourn in the realm of the subject device I realize there's an "urgent need" for a particular survey for our beloved CPM's (Code Project Mondays).
"What Do You Read to Relax the Mind Whilst Relaxing On the Trône de l'homme ?
[ ] Catch Up on Day's News
[ ] CP Lounge Posts on Smart Phone
[ ] ASSembly Code Manuals
[ ] KSS My As...
[ ] Nothing - I just count tiles
Th Pre-Softened Roll of VB6 code, affixed to the wall indentation, doesn't count!
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I play with my....
Smartphone!!!!
What else? 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
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Johnny J. wrote: What else?
That's what Clooney says 
if(this.signature != "")
{
MessageBox.Show("This is my signature: " + Environment.NewLine + signature);
}
else
{
MessageBox.Show("404-Signature not found");
}
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Nothing else .. 
Or, did you think something else? 
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I
<br />
[ ] Catch Up on Day's News
[ ] CP Lounge Posts on Smart Phone
[ ] ASSembly Code Manuals
[ ] KSS My As...
[ ] Nothing -I just count tiles
if(this.signature != "")
{
MessageBox.Show("This is my signature: " + Environment.NewLine + signature);
}
else
{
MessageBox.Show("404-Signature not found");
}
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I just log on...
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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I log out...
veni bibi saltavi
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Just in case your Logon (Log in?) fails, you might try a few prunes.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I don't require artificial aids; I grew up on my mothers cooking.
She was not one of natures Born Cooks, so we children grew up developing an immunity to Listeria, Salmonella, arsenic poisoning, and with the ability to digest nearly anything - this has remained to this day. We were about the only family I know of that actually prefered School Dinners... 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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OriginalGriff wrote: We were about the only family I know of that actually prefered School Dinners...
Oh - I didn't realize - you poor afflicted soul!
I'll try to be nicer to you - more understanding about your posts. Count my lucky stars (not to be confused with Lucky Charms) when I set before some leftovers that weren't originally nearly as green as they are now.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Easy: I don't even try and relax on said throne; I quickly push one out and then leave as quickly as possible. Toilet != lounge.
No object is so beautiful that, under certain conditions, it will not look ugly. - Oscar Wilde
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Brady Kelly wrote: I quickly push one out and then leave as quickly as possible
I hope it was an accidental omission on your part - but if not - let me remind you that the paper roll nearby has more uses than that of a pillow.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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No omission, and no accident. The "as quickly as possible" carefully includes a healthy deference to that paper's important role.
No object is so beautiful that, under certain conditions, it will not look ugly. - Oscar Wilde
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Brady Kelly wrote: important role roll.
That's a relief. Hopefully you don't reduce your residency to the point where you pass through your office/home with a disturbing resemblance to a white-tailed deer.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Please sir, you do my word choice an injustice. I spelled it "role" because I was referring to the role the paper plays in making such occasions tolerable.
No object is so beautiful that, under certain conditions, it will not look ugly. - Oscar Wilde
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No harm meant - I thought I could use that word and get a double meaning (i.e., two-ply) result.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: double meaning
I only got number two, but please don't stop, you're on a roll...
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
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