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SeattleC++ wrote: that are automatically extracted from the data don't start with the presumption of innocence.
Rather certain that almost all of the methods associated with the No Fly list do not start with a presumption of innocence.
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I wonder why the media is making a big deal of this now. When I bought my Android phone 2+ years ago, the first thing I did was set my privacy options.
/ravi
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Well - most people don't have the wit to even know there are privacy options, followed by too lazy to make the effort to do anything with them. In apples case, as they demo'd on the TV report, it's about six layers down from the main screen - and remember that each layer has options.
It's something like an opt-out vs. opt-in button when people install software - hence the preponderance of malware.
In the US, credit cards, banks, etc. have privacy policies that they must disclose annually and give the consumer the option to opt out of some and, at the least, make them aware of the rest. In the state of California, most of this type of stuff is (by law) opt-out default. Not so much for apple/google.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: In the state of California, most of this type of stuff is (by law) opt-out default.
Because California passed a law to do just that. Until then it wasn't.
And they can pass the same sort of law for phones.
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Why do you care if anyone tracks your location???
So what?
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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Coder (Hired) wrote: Why do you care if anyone tracks your location???
..very much lots. It is a limitation in movement, in safety and liberty, since it would also contain the daily patterns of politicians and other interesting people. During wartime that information becomes even more valuable, and companies have been shown to gladly share with all sides.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Nothing you posted here makes any sense, nor has any remote chance of effecting your daily life..
1) Movement.. You can move around just fine - with or without your phone on you.
2) Safety.. not sure how safety comes in here. What's unsafe about location tracking?
3) Liberty.. what rights would you lose with this feature on?
4) "politicians and other interesting people" - wait, what? huh?
5) Wartime - there's a war on now.. How has your phone's location services had any effect on it, or been affected by it?
6) Sharing - Again, so what.. This has been going on for years with all kinds of advertising.
I really don't get the "phone => location" hysteria. The only reason I turned by off is because it means apps are running -and my battery dies faster.
Personnaly I don't care about any of the things you point out. All are non-issues, and some are way out there whacko.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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Coder (Hired) wrote: How is it unsafe?
I assumed the previous already explained the danger of sharing sensitive information 
Coder (Hired) wrote: What rights did you lose?
Freedom is not just about rights.
Coder (Hired) wrote: ... none of which effect you whatsoever.
It cannot otherwise than affect me, as it would be rather global, not local.
Coder (Hired) wrote: How exactly does this effect you? We're at war now... how are you effected?
I'm Dutch, and not in any war AFAIK. In the case your "we" is American, I will have to refuse to answer.
Coder (Hired) wrote: All are non-issues, and some are way out there whacko.
Thanks.
I would not trust any government with all that information, so no chance I'd trust a company with it.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Again, you've replied with nothing to substantiate any real danger of phone location tracking.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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Hey Eddy, ever get get the feeling you're talking to narks? 
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Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Late to the party but I just asked him why, after 10 years on CP, he has no photo, no bio, no information at all - what has he to hide?
Also requested he post his phone numbers, family details, etc.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Let me play the Devil's advocate of why it is BAD to give the government unfettered access to this information.
Lets pretend someone in the agency wants to run for Public Office. But they need Donor money to make this happen.
So, they run a simple geofence around rich neighborhoods (really rich). They also geofence all of the hotels (both are already done for them, BTW).
Now, they take META data. Phone #, Time/Date, GPS location.
They run a simple enough query. Find every phone that normally spends the night in the right neighborhoods, that also spends the nights (or large parts of it), in the Nice hotels on some nights.
[People who might be having an affair]
Next, find multiple occurrences, and then find the phones that are consistently (more than once), near that phone, those nights in the hotel. [The person, they are probably having an affair with].
Next, cross reference the original phones with their work locations, double check that they are not working for the government, or are judges.
Take this list, and "Suggest Kindly" that you know about the affair, and that your Campaign needs a SMALL amount of cash. And suddenly, you are a politician.
I have watched SIMILAR transactions occur, against wealthy people that I know. When they refused, they had charges brought against them, in a CLEAR SMEAR campaign, and were forced to literally step down from their companies, and in hindsight said they should have just paid the money, it cost them too much!!! The charges eventually went away... Settled out of court.
Information is NEITHER good nor bad. How it is used, CAN be either.
There are a lot of positive uses. They can identify the rioters in Baltimore! Bring up DL Photos, and cross reference, and make arrests later on. Now, the interesting part is that they will probably not use this data in this way. If not, all arguments for keeping it seem moot!
==
The issue is not the data. This issue is not how honest you are. This issue is really about having it used against you in some unforeseeable way, and then having the government (who admits that their agents are REQUIRED to lie under oath about some of its existence and usage, look into the sting ray device usage), use this information to exact some kind of justice.
I will give you one more. Right now, the IRS can seize all of your bank assets for depositing too much cash under the $10,000 threshold. They can do this on daily transactions of $3,000 -$5,000.
And you have to sue them to get it back.
Now, someone does a search for cars that drive through a drug area. They notice you drive through twice a day, and stop for a few minutes on the way home. (you are dropping off the uneaten food from your diner to some very in need people). their search algorithms determines you might be supplying drugs. And WOW, you do lots of cash transactions.
What do you think happens next?
==
The founders of this great nation FEARED an all-seeing and all-powerful central government.
One without lots of controls that LIMIT its power at every step. Innocent until PROVEN guilty.
(notice how the IRS rule is allowed to subvert this).
This is a nasty cocktail my friends.
It can happen, it does happen, and it never bothers bystanders UNTIL it happens to them, or someone they love, and they watch them lose everything when they did nothing wrong.
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Well said. Too few people understand that it's not the individual pieces of data that matter, it's the way that it can all be aggregated now. Just about anything about your private life can be revealed from your data trail, from your Internet use, your purchases, location data, etc.
The potential for harassment, blackmail, etc. is huge. It makes it easy for powerful actors (wealthy individuals, governments, criminals, police, private detectives) to attack, discredit, silence, etc. This happened to the OWS movement, they were targeted under anti-terrorism laws. Think about how easy this makes it for the government to go after dissidents.
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Kirk 10389821 wrote: I have watched SIMILAR transactions occur, against wealthy people that I know.
Don't know where you live but where I live that is blackmail and a criminal offense and if the politician that would have gained by this wasn't even involved but some "well" intentioned other individual did it on their behalf the politician would be dealing with fall out continuously throughout their campaign and it would be seen as a significant negative for that politician in terms of the voters.
Of course if they were involved then they would be facing criminal charges and their campaign would be done.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: I will give you one more. Right now, the IRS can seize all of your bank assets for depositing too much cash under the $10,000 threshold. They can do this on daily transactions of $3,000 -$5,000.
And you have to sue them to get it back.
Now, someone does a search for cars that drive through a drug area. They notice you drive through twice a day, and stop for a few minutes on the way home. (you are dropping off the uneaten food from your diner to some very in need people). their search algorithms determines you might be supplying drugs. And WOW, you do lots of cash transactions.
What do you think happens next?
Let me clue you in - phones have been collecting this information for years. That is why there are so many apps now that use it.
Where are all of these scenarios that you claim should be happening? The info already exists so that isn't the problem.
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The challenge is that these guys are smarter than you think.
Most of them are lawyers.
In this case, it was not worded as a threat. It was a request for a donation, with a specific range attached to it. A couple of times. Then out of the blue, he gets information that they are questioning people looking for charges. Another request he turns down. See, different "actors".
Then the charges come, his passport is revoked. No way to tie the two together, but research determines the two people are linked.
Also, this concept of "If this was happening, we would hear about it!" is a Bogus argument.
Did you hear of the Doctor who rallied against HIV as the cause of AIDS, who was WILLINGLY Injecting himself with HIV+ patients blood??? (no, it made the news in other countries, here, it was not covered. Despite him being in Florida. The person I contacted said they could not cover it, their Editor said no).
Did you know Larry King was on a 5 second delay, and was warned that these types of comments cannot come up on his LIVE SHOW? If they did, they would cut to commercial, and he would be fined.
Did you know that the Air Traffic Controllers, right after 9/11 were forced to sign GAG orders, acknowledging that they would be sued by the government if they spoke EVEN ABOUT the GAG order?
The scenarios ARE happening. I am a nobody and I have seen them first and second hand.
The key thing I see in all of these cases is that they don't take EVERYTHING, they take enough.
And then they leave you vulnerable. If you speak out, you WILL lose everything, and they will
make you look like an idiot, so nobody will listen to a word you say.
Snowden Leaked information. Look at how they go after him. Even calling him a low-level analyst,
which they admit was to piss him off hoping he would make a mistake.
The backstory you probably did NOT hear. They approached the business owner of the Encrypted Email tool he used, and they tried to force him to embed a virus, and steal Snowdens Encryption Keys. This guy had 2 choices. Obey and lose self-respect or shut it down, and lose his business. He choose the latter. It is actually public information.
Is that NOT an example of the over-reach we are talking about?
Is that blackmail? Well, not when it is sanctioned and TOP SECRET. Also, again, the government throws gag orders in there. So you DO NOT KNOW it is happening around you.
The lack of clear evidence for everyone to see is NOT PROOF it is not happening. The existence of some proof is a warning that it could be a LOT more prevalent than you realize.
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Kirk 10389821 wrote: is a Bogus argument.
First I didn't say that.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: Did you hear of the Doctor who rallied against HIV as the cause of AIDS, who was WILLINGLY Injecting himself with HIV
Yes.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: Did you know Larry King was on a 5 second delay, and was warned that these types of comments cannot come up on his LIVE SHOW? If they did, they would cut to commercial, and he would be fined
Sounds like conspiracy nonsense.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: Did you know that the Air Traffic Controllers, right after 9/11 were forced to sign GAG orders, acknowledging that they would be sued by the government if they spoke EVEN ABOUT the GAG order
Sounds like more conspiracy nonsense. There are some issues that can be covered by such orders however so it depends on what the topic was.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: Is that NOT an example of the over-reach we are talking about?
Not sure what you are talking. Sounds like a random bunch of conspiracy nonsense like any of a large number of conspiracy theories. All of the ones I have seen are nonsensical in various ways and almost always because they require that humans have super human powers to achieve, because they ignore the base human behaviors.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: The lack of clear evidence for everyone to see is NOT PROOF it is not happening
Yes actually for the vast majority of theories that is exactly what it means.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: The existence of some proof is a warning that it could be a LOT more prevalent than you realize.
Nope. History is full of actual conspiracies. The reason those conspiracies exist in history is because humans are stupid, ignorant, jealous, spiteful, remorseful, fearful, greedy, incompetent, etc, etc, etc. When all of that is added up over time it means even small conspiracies tend to fall apart. Large conspiracies have no chance.
And rationalizing anything else requires that one suppose that humans or something that looks like a human is running around with super human powers.
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Well,
I could sit here and quote a small piece of a lot of things you wrote, and keep saying "sounds like sour grapes". I wont.
I will focus on ONE THING. Larry King Live show. Because I asked. I found that Tony Robbins had Dr. Duesberg as a speaker. Duesberg points out the HORRIBLE science behind HIV=AIDS theory. Tony is also a good friend of Larry King. Who spoke at the event. (Don't even start with me on the topic, until you have read and understood the science behind his ITAV book)
I reached out to Tony, personally, during the event. He is the one who told me that Larry was on the delay, and that he is REMINDED when Tony comes on his show of the list of topics he cannot cover.
That is a form of censorship that MOST people in America would NEVER THINK HAPPENS.
(The editors argue that any such views they block are "dangerous" for the average viewers to hear!)
So. I again point out that NONE of the things I mentioned are theories. I have witnessed them FIRST HAND (or second hand with someone I could trust telling me the situation they were directly involved in, as in this case).
==
The point I was making still stands. There is a LOT you don't know about because some of it is being blocked from your view. The fact that you have heard NOTHING about it means that it can be prevented from being leaking out.
If conspiracies happen all the time, then how come you refer to anything that sounds conspiratorial as "nonsense" throughout your replies?
Did Cigarette companies not hide their own research?
Did the NSA not ADMIT to violating their own rules for spying?
Did the IRS not ADMIT that it violated its rules in targeting and releasing information?
This was all about the dangers of the overreach of the government as they have access to an ever increasing amount of details of our lives. Much of it will be used to solve crimes, which is good. Much of it is a violation of our 4th amendment rights! New cars now have black boxes so they can see where the car has been. Soon enough, it will just have a cell phone embedded in it for tracking, with the ability to shut it down remotely and tracking in real-time. And we will probably not have a way to turn it off.
Thomas Jefferson would be spinning in his grave!
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Kirk 10389821 wrote: Duesberg points out the HORRIBLE science behind HIV=AIDS theory. ...behind his ITAV book)
Nonsense.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: He is the one who told me that Larry was on the delay,..the list of topics he cannot cover.
I once was personally confronted by a angry young man that looked more than capable of beating up any one he wanted who was quite certain he was going to convince me that I personally was being taken advantage of by some large conspiracy at the very event we both were attending.
It was of course nonsense.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: So. I again point out that NONE of the things I mentioned are theories.
They are "theories" in the same way that there are alien bases on the dark side of the moon and that big foot is in fact a clandestine alien invasion. All are nonsensical both in the context of specific evidence and more generally because the very broad basis that even allows for the possibility defies reality.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: The point I was making still stands. There is a LOT you don't know about because some of it is being blocked from your view. The fact that you have heard NOTHING about it means that it can be prevented from being leaking out.
Nonsense. First is presumes that I am not in fact part of those conspirators that are keeping you from learning the truth.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: If conspiracies happen all the time, then how come you refer to anything that sounds conspiratorial as "nonsense" throughout your replies?
Because conspiracies, exactly like the ones you cite, are in fact revealed over time.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: Did the NSA not ADMIT to violating their own rules for spying?
Did the IRS not ADMIT that it violated its rules in targeting and releasing information?
Doubt that. Such admissions, as you stated, would probably be admissible in criminal court. More likely your are referring to claims by others that such occurred.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: Much of it is a violation of our 4th amendment rights!
First that is yet to be decided in many cases.
Second most of our "rights" that seem to fall into that category have in fact been added by legislation and until they were added they were not considered a right.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: New cars now have black boxes so they can see where the car has been
Nonsense. That is not why it is there.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: Soon enough, it will just have a cell phone embedded in it for tracking, with the ability to shut it down remotely and tracking in real-time. And we will probably not have a way to turn it off.
Some new cars already have a way to "turn off" certain systems and have had so probably for at least three years.
However that has nothing to do with any nefarious purpose but is solely either a marketing tool or a sales tool intended to increase the cost of maintenance.
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Okay, You said nonsense a lot.
I will pick ONE item to prove me wrong about.
As you should know, when a new scientific fact is discovered, it must be foot noted in all of the papers that reference it for the first few years.
I hereby challenge. Please find the peer-reviewed and cited study that PROVED that HIV causes AIDS.
Simple enough. You know you believe it is true. Should just be a search away.
So, I call your "nonsense" statement. PROVE your statement, or come back and admit you were wrong!
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Kirk 10389821 wrote: You know you believe it is true. Should just be a search away.
I am rather certain that attempting to prove this to you would be similar to attempting to convert the Pope to Islam.
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jschell wrote: I am rather certain that attempting to prove this to you would be similar to attempting to convert the Pope to Islam.
Nonsense!
I said show me the peer-review, published and referenced study that shows HIV Causes AIDS.
There is no "conversion" on my part. It is not about what I believe to be true. It is about the
science that I have read, and the facts that have and have not been proven.
Do you have the REQUIRED FACT to backup your statement or not? A fact that should be in the public domain, and easy enough to find.
I know a ton of interesting facts on this topic. Like, in Africa, the same exact blood can be positive or negative for HIV, based on how the questionnaire is filled out! Or in America, people have gotten both HIV+ and HIV- results from the test. Or how a blood sample in the US might be negative, but in another country the same blood could test positive! Books have been written about this stuff. Unread by you. Or simply considered "nonsense" by you.
Don't do it to convince me. Do it for yourself. Find out if it was ever published.
You will find that "HIV, the virus that causes AIDS" is not attributed to ANY peer-review study on causation. In fact, the quote is not usually attributed to anything or anyone (occasionally to Dr. Robert Gallow, but never to any published work).
You can either find it, or you cannot. I will assume you did a quick look, and realized you could not find it. Instead of admitting that, you simply slam me with an insult.
The only reply I care to get from you at this point is:
Yes I found it: <reference> (To which I will confirm and bestow on you congratulations)
or
I could not find it, I retract that single "nonsense" statement I made..
(for which I will thank you for your integrity and honesty, and offer to see if you would be
interested in curious facts as it regards HIV/AIDS research and reality. You may not, and
that is fine).
Thanks!
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Kirk 10389821 wrote: I know a ton of interesting facts on this topic.
I know that there are articles in "scientific" journals that show that drinking cow urine cures all types of cancer along with other ills. And that astrology works.
I do however doubt the both the articles and journals themselves.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: The only reply I care to get from you at this point is:
Fortunately freedom of speech doesn't work like that.
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jschell wrote: I know that there are articles in "scientific" journals that show that drinking cow urine cures all types of cancer along with other ills. And that astrology works.
Not in any Peer Reviewed journals that I have ever heard of.
So, that should have made it EASIER for you to find.
But the point being made, which you were calling nonsense... Is that the opposing points of view on MANY of these arguments have been effectively silenced. Careers lost, not because of evidence or proof, but because they refused to recant sound research. (Duesberg being one of them). A professor at MSU while I was there was forced to recant his position and his own published book, because they pressured him, and all of his research grants. ("Maybe you are not the right person to continue this research.")
Some people (Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. I believe), have tried to say that SPEAKING against Climate Change should be a felony... OMG.
Global Warming is here. It started when the Glaciers that made the Great Lakes receded... And there were NO PEOPLE or CARS causing this. Does anyone know how long that cycle is? Do they account for it in their "Climate Change" projections. I laugh because we cannot predict a single WINTER season accurately, but we are supposed to believe they have models to predict the next 40 years that are correct? So, I don't believe in man-made Global Warming.
Shutting down free speech is the real issue. I had given examples that I had witnessed, either first or second hand. I took issue with you claiming they were all nonsense. As if I were making them up. So I challenged you to prove your assertion (or at least that my assertion was wrong).
jschell wrote: Fortunately freedom of speech doesn't work like that.
But one should use the freedom wisely. If you challenge someones statements, I think that bringing some facts to the table is the way to go. Then you become a better communicator, I learn something, and the other people who might be following this learns something.
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